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Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

1000 replies

twoandcooplease · 19/08/2023 01:47

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

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18
GrouchyKiwi · 20/08/2023 19:30

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:29

@BIossomtoes

DNA. Fingerprints etc. what would you class as forensic evidence?

And DNA, fingerprints, EVERYTHING FORENSIC, are STILL circumstantial evidence!

It doesn't mean what you think it means.

Boudicasbeard · 20/08/2023 19:30

Would everyone stop falling into the same trap please. It is derailing the thread.

What I find interesting is the interview with the officer who over saw the case. There is a definite impression from her that she found LL cold and unreliable from first questioning. I find the nightgown thing manipulative as well. The police don’t turn up at your convenience. She was definitely trying to make herself sound all weak and vulnerable- in my nightie, bad knee, picked on at work etc.

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:31

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nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:32

@GrouchyKiwi show me forensics though. One single piece of it. The news reports isn't enough. Show us it.

itsgettingweird · 20/08/2023 19:32

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I have dyslexia.

How the hell is anything I've written a a list towards dyslexic people.

I've said that the people who are questioning the jury have a very similar writing style to LL herself.

I'm interested in the psychology of it. As in how people completely unrelated to the case or LL herself can centre themselves in this tragedy.

You just happen to be one of those few posters 🤷‍♀️

TooOldForThisNonsense · 20/08/2023 19:32

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:29

@BIossomtoes

DNA. Fingerprints etc. what would you class as forensic evidence?

Ok. So how would that prove guilt?

all that would prove she was there. Which is already widely known due to swipe reports, rotas, eyewitness evidence, admission. It wouldn’t prove she killed them. So we’re not any further on then? As she’d also try and have some sort of explanation for the presence of her DNA/fingerprints ie she was nursing the children

Anotherchristianmama · 20/08/2023 19:33

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:29

@BIossomtoes

DNA. Fingerprints etc. what would you class as forensic evidence?

That's still circumstantial though. It proves someone was (almost certainly) there, It doesn't prove what they did while they were there.

CloudyMcCloudy · 20/08/2023 19:34

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:10

You are so right. Circumstantial evidence is often enough to prosecute- but it isn't for me. I am allowed that option and feeling. That isn't something you or anyone can take from me just as I cannot take your belief from you.

What have you read?

Boudicasbeard · 20/08/2023 19:36

@CloudyMcCloudy

I wouldn’t bother. The same replies about circumstantial evidences get trotted out.

GardenBirdie · 20/08/2023 19:36

Moonlightdust · 20/08/2023 19:11

Yes think there’s a lot of truth in this. Also, if her mother has a very traumatic birth with her perhaps she couldn’t have any more children and added to LL’s sense of superiority? She may have been overly spoilt as a result growing up or had pressure put on her to live up to high expectations. Her wall art with words ‘Shine like a diamond’ and ‘Leave sparkles in your path’ or similar words to that affect affirm your theory that she believed she was special. I think sickeningly that being at the heart of the drama and getting sympathy etc fed her ego and made her feel in control.
From a psychological point of view it does indicate covert narcissism:

“One study found that people with narcissistic personality disorder are more likely to have grown up with parents who were highly focused on status and achievements.3 Because they were often made to feel superior to other children, the belief that they are special and more valuable than others may persist into adulthood.”

What Triggers a Covert Narcissist? It is not clear, however, why narcissistic behavior is sometimes displayed in covert rather than overt ways. Some situations that might trigger a covert narcissist include:

  • Being ignored
  • Feeling disrespected
  • Threats to their ego
  • Feelings of shame
  • Being around high-status people
  • Feeling less attractive or less educated than others
  • Having less of something than others
  • Not getting the attention they think they deserve
  • Jealousy
  • Lack of control

The above would also explain LL’s frantic scribbles of ‘Not good enough’ and ‘I will never marry or have a family’ etc. True narcissism is a strange disorder where although the person has a sense of superiority, there is underlying insecurity.

I don’t know if you saw it, but the CPS prosecutor interviewed on the Panorama said Letby exhibited the most extreme narcissism she’d ever encountered. The notes, it seems to me, suggest self-loathing or at least very low self-esteem (as well as self-pity). If her self-esteem was so low she was prepared to sink to such depraved levels to ‘big herself up’, then the narcissism couple with it was literally lethal - it meant she had the drive to kill and injure the babies without remorse.

Obviously just a guess, we’ll probably never know.

Rinoachicken · 20/08/2023 19:36

There are some very strange people on MN…with very interesting and unique styles of language…

Mustardseed86 · 20/08/2023 19:37

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TooOldForThisNonsense · 20/08/2023 19:39

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:32

@GrouchyKiwi show me forensics though. One single piece of it. The news reports isn't enough. Show us it.

what about fingerprint evidence would you think is infallible?

Have you heard of Shirley McKie?

x2boys · 20/08/2023 19:42

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:23

@BIossomtoes

The fact she wasn't seen to do so and that it cannot be proven forensically is enough for me- you are correct.

You realise most murders,s are not actually seen killing their victims right?
Should we let them all.go free because no.one caught then in the act?

Lemieux7 · 20/08/2023 19:52

You realise most murders,s are not actually seen killing their victims right?
Should we let them all.go free because no.one caught then in the act?

Exactly. I'm glad some of the people on this thread were not on the jury. There is such a thing as looking as the totality of the evidence. What is this nonsense about needing forensic evidence??

bellac11 · 20/08/2023 19:55

Lol at the theories of the motive based on her wall art!!!!

BIossomtoes · 20/08/2023 19:57

Lemieux7 · 20/08/2023 19:52

You realise most murders,s are not actually seen killing their victims right?
Should we let them all.go free because no.one caught then in the act?

Exactly. I'm glad some of the people on this thread were not on the jury. There is such a thing as looking as the totality of the evidence. What is this nonsense about needing forensic evidence??

It’s a bit reminiscent of the friend who said she wouldn’t believe it unless Letby confessed to her.

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 19:59

reesewithoutaspoon · 20/08/2023 19:10

What evidence do you want. the nature of the crimes was that they were done without being witnessed. If she had been seen doing this it would have stopped at that point and investigations would have happened. There is never going to be that kind of evidence you want, all there will be is circumstantial evidence and all that circumstantial evidence points to LL.
Normal death rate before she started working there, massive spike while she was there, back to normal when she was off the unit. Every single case of unexpected collapse or death occurred when she was on the unit. 25 occasions, the next nurse down was 7 occasions, its hard to believe that was just unfortunate coincidence.
The text messages where she is reliving the experience, the hundreds of facebook searches of grieving parents, keeping the handover notes
All of it points towards LL, none of it points away from her.

Well this is the thing, apparently wasn't back to normal after she left there. There appear to be stats showing excess neonatal deaths continuing after she left.

Even before she left, discounting the deaths she was convicted for, there were still excess deaths that she didn't and couldn't have committed.

This case is looking more and more like an egregious miscarriage of justice. Her defence team were poor, didn't put up any expert witnesses on her behalf, accepted insulin had been added to the IV bags without challenge, didn't bring in any expert witnesses to refute that, forcing their client to accept it on the stand. didn't refute the expert testimony given by the doctor regarding air embolisms which may have been out of date or not appropriate for the cases in this trial, and if what I'm hearing is correct left out evidence that stood a good chance of if not exonerating her, giving sufficient cause for doubt. Unfortunately the Jury could only go with what they had, which was nearly all the so-called 'expert' info coming from one side!

I will say the quality of investigative journalism on this country is piss poor, it has to now be at the lowest point ever and the tabloids all but ensured there would be bias in this case. I find it really disturbing. We are also in a time when the police are under pressure and are bending over backwards to appear effective and like they are solving major crimes. And funding for defence cases is thin on the ground, it doesn't add to a conducive atmosphere for justice.

We don't hang people or have the death penalty anymore, but there are some things worse than death. A reputation as a serial baby killer is one of those things, because even when you die your name is mud and the stigma attaches to your family and loved ones for generations. To lock someone up on the basis of mostly circumstantial evidence for a crime this serious, demands at the very least another and closer look.

GardenBirdie · 20/08/2023 20:00

According to The Guardian, police have now identified at least another 30 incidents in Chester and Liverpool where babies may have been harmed - truly chilling.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/20/lucy-letby-dozens-more-babies-police-believe-chester-liverpool

Perhaps, like Allitt, she didn’t intend to kill the babies but to make them sicker so she could ‘heroically’ revive them and win praise?

Or perhaps she began by injuring them and then progressed to killing them? It’s hard to even think about.

Lucy Letby may have harmed dozens more babies, police fear

Exclusive: Officers investigating ‘suspicious’ incidents at Countess of Chester and Liverpool women’s hospitals

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/20/lucy-letby-dozens-more-babies-police-believe-chester-liverpool

bellac11 · 20/08/2023 20:00

Do many criminals confess?

The jury has to balance the likelihood of all the evidence either pointing to her guilt or not and if it does point to her guilt then its beyond reasonable doubt

The whole picture is the evidence, Im not sure why there is a quibble about whether its circumstantial or not, only eye witness accounts would be something thats not circumstantial surely

And just a note on the rotas I thought that someone on another thread said they used to swipe in and out for each other anyway so they're not accurate, but equally she turned up to work when she wasnt meant to be at work as well, quite a messy and chaotic structure to the ward by the sounds of it.

bellac11 · 20/08/2023 20:03

Also a query, I read up about Beverley Allit after people made reference to her on here, people keep describing her as 'very unwell'

What with? Given she seems to have manipulated her way into Rampton and is said to have 'possibly' suffered with fabricated illness by proxy, whats her actuall diagnosis and illness then?

BIossomtoes · 20/08/2023 20:04

There appear to be stats showing excess neonatal deaths continuing after she left. Even before she left, discounting the deaths she was convicted for, there were still excess deaths that she didn't and couldn't have committed.

Is there any evidence (forensic or otherwise) of this?

magicalkitty · 20/08/2023 20:07

@DysonSpheres the trial went on for 10 months, how much more of a 'closer look' do you think there needs to be?

The jury will have heard all the evidence, and much more than we the public have read via the media reporting. Many facts won't have been reported on due to court orders, anonymity rulings and the like.

Justice doesn't work with 'best out of three' trials. She has been on trial and found guilty and lord knows how much this trial and investigation has cost. Whether her legal team think she has grounds for appeal remains to be seen at this point.

magicalkitty · 20/08/2023 20:08

Also there have been years of investigations into this, it hasn't been a quick rushed job.

Boudicasbeard · 20/08/2023 20:10

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