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Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

1000 replies

twoandcooplease · 19/08/2023 01:47

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

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18
x2boys · 20/08/2023 20:12

bellac11 · 20/08/2023 20:03

Also a query, I read up about Beverley Allit after people made reference to her on here, people keep describing her as 'very unwell'

What with? Given she seems to have manipulated her way into Rampton and is said to have 'possibly' suffered with fabricated illness by proxy, whats her actuall diagnosis and illness then?

That was her diagnosis I beleive?
I read a couple of books about her but.it was many years ago.she was by all.accounts an attention seeker who.exhibited some very strange and worrying behaviour as a teen and throughout her nurse training ,tbh,she should never have qualified as a nurse .

BeenThereDoneThat101 · 20/08/2023 20:12

@nolamesallowed · your insistence on defending the most notorious child murderer in history is disturbing to say the least.

All your talk of how much pain you’re in, how you need closure, either you’re close to this case i.e. a friend or relative, or you’re being this obtuse purely to be deliberately goadie. Your description of the families of the victims in your now thankfully deleted post just shows the contempt you clearly feel for the victims of murdered babies. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

It’s one thing to say “I’m not sure of the evidence, it looks a bit iffy”, it’s quite another to say “I’m in pain and need closure” and to speak in disparaging terms about the victims.

She’s guilty. Whether you think she is or isn’t is entirely irrelevant. She’s been found guilty, she will hopefully never see the outside world again, and in the meantime the families of the innocent babies she murdered will spend the rest of their lives coming to terms with the fact their babies were murdered.

Pulling that apart just to be contrary or unpleasant (take your pick) is out of line.

bellac11 · 20/08/2023 20:16

I dont have a problem with people questioning evidence and decisions, if you work in the courts you'll know that decisions are not always right

But my question for those that really dont think that that she is guilty, answer this - why didnt her defence team have any contest to the medical evidence, why didnt her defence team have any medical expert witnesses?

What actually was her defence, just 'it wasnt me?'

Does she accept the children died through non accidental injury?

MavisMcMinty · 20/08/2023 20:19

I was interested to hear on the most recent Lucy Letby Trial podcast the police officer in charge of the investigation, who said every single suspicious case was given to a different copper to investigate at the start of the investigation. It was at weekly team briefings where one would report e.g. “the nurse handed over to Lucy Letby and the mother went out for a break and the baby collapsed” and another would say “That’s exactly what happened to my family!”

Made sense to me, a single small team interviewing all the families might have had unconscious bias.

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 20:21

BIossomtoes · 20/08/2023 20:04

There appear to be stats showing excess neonatal deaths continuing after she left. Even before she left, discounting the deaths she was convicted for, there were still excess deaths that she didn't and couldn't have committed.

Is there any evidence (forensic or otherwise) of this?

There are stats yes.

I sincerely hope they will be used in any defence she launches (assuming she doesn't kill herself before then).

And all this empty rhetoric about juries finding people guilty so that's the end of it.

No. Miscarriages of justice happen even in extremely high profile cases. Often the sort of atmosphere we have now. An NHS under scrutiny under huge pressure, govt under pressure, police under pressure, public law defence funding under pressure and someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

MavisMcMinty · 20/08/2023 20:21

I presume those who think Letby is the victim of a terrible miscarriage of justice would be perfectly happy to let her care for their neonates?

MavisMcMinty · 20/08/2023 20:22

I wouldn’t trust her with my house plants.

Boudicasbeard · 20/08/2023 20:22

@MavisMcMinty That is interesting. Will have to had a listen to that podcast.

Shouldbehoovering · 20/08/2023 20:22

sparklelikeadiamond · 19/08/2023 20:40

Believe in the verdict. But can anyone explain about why the non-insulin deaths with no post-mortem, initially said to be bowel related, were deemed to be caused by air?

I’m hoping someone else has answered the bowel/air question more succinctly but air in the bowels is a normal process of digestion (farts). This can be increased by pathological processes and can become very very serious. Air injected into a babies stomach (via an ng tube) will reduce the ability of the diaphragm to relax allowing air in to the lungs and would be incredibly painful (ever had trapped wind?!). I don’t know enough but I’d assume that the air can pass into the small intestine from the stomach (or if the baby had an nj tube it would be injected directly into the small
bowel). I can’t see how you would know if it was injected or arose from pathological processes.

truthhurts23 · 20/08/2023 20:22

Friggingfrog · 20/08/2023 16:37

It’s not shocking because she’s white. It’s because she’s a young seemingly happy and social female with a normal upbringing. Parents still married, good jobs, doted on only child who did well and got a degree, became nurse, has good social life, supportive family etc. often you read of mass murderers and they often, especially younger ones, have a troubled background and are isolated and angry individuals. It’s unusual so be so social and happy with no obvious issues and become a mass baby killer. I’m not sure why people are obsessed with it being because she’s white.

IF she was black or non white, it wouldn't even matter to people if she was "young, seemingly happy and social female, with a normal upbringing. Parents still married, good jobs, doted on only child who did well and got a degree, became nurse, has good social life, supportive family"
because people would only look at her skin colour and say yeah, its believable that she did do it and they would disregard anything else about her.
Absolutely no one would be saying,
"I just cant believe that someone like her would do this". " She doesn't look like the sort of person who would do this." if she was non white

often you read of mass murderers and they often, especially younger ones, have a troubled background and are isolated and angry individuals.

I do watch true crimes , for years and I have actually come across the opposite, For mass murderers to be successful in what they do , they have to be somewhat sociable, charismatic, or they wouldn't be able to lure any victims.
If they were antisocial and outwardly angry people would just avoid them,
they would also be caught a lot quicker if they weren't manipulative and charming.

There are so many murderers who had unremarkable or even good, childhoods, with parents who love and dote on them, they still end up killing.
And vice versa, there are people who had terrible, abusive childhoods and they wouldn't hurt a fly , so its really a mixed bag

The childhood only becomes relevant after the murderer is caught and people are trying to piece together the persons psyche.
And even then, people need to be objective about what information they are reading
There are lots of functioning adults who have childlike tendencies and keep children's toys but its not concerning, unless they do something like kill someone
then it does become somewhat relevant because it is an oddity for an adult to have a room full of stuffed teddy bears, its not socially acceptable

It’s unusual so be so social and happy with no obvious issues and become a mass baby killer
Like others have said on the thread, she was social and nice to people on a very superficial level, for all we know its probably an act,
she seemed to have disdain towards a lot of her colleagues and thought she was more competent and qualified than they were
she also moaned, whined and complained about everything
she doesn't sound like a particularly great person, just not terrible
she clearly wasn't happy , judging by all the self loathing notes she used to write herself

I’m not sure why people are obsessed with it being because she’s white.
Being white is part of the reason why she was able to get away with it for so long
part of that presumption of innocence is due to her whiteness,
I don't know if that makes you uncomfortable or not but that is the reality

There are so many white people parroting the same things
"she doesn't look/ seem like she was capable of this" "she looks innocent"
and things along those lines but they wont expand on what they think a child murderer should look like.
which just proves everyone's point

White women do kill people , young people also kill ,
educated people kill , middle class people kill, people with two parents kill,
nurses kill, people with degrees kill, social butterfly's kill
its not always the ugly woman with the hook nose and warts or the man with bug eyes and hump

ANYbody can kill someone, the sooner people swallow that fact , they will stop making stupid statements that Lucy Letby doesnt fit the profile because she absolutely does fit the profile, she is a human with hands and thats all it takes to kill someone else

Spamham · 20/08/2023 20:23

@RadishesForYou - I disagree. There is evidence that the vast majority of murderers have an empathy deficit.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8355490/

BeenThereDoneThat101 · 20/08/2023 20:24

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 20:21

There are stats yes.

I sincerely hope they will be used in any defence she launches (assuming she doesn't kill herself before then).

And all this empty rhetoric about juries finding people guilty so that's the end of it.

No. Miscarriages of justice happen even in extremely high profile cases. Often the sort of atmosphere we have now. An NHS under scrutiny under huge pressure, govt under pressure, police under pressure, public law defence funding under pressure and someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

no, it wasn’t neonatal deaths, it was perinatal deaths i.e. deaths during childbirth. Totally different.

The neonatal deaths stopped when she was removed from the department, the unit was since downgraded so they don’t take the sickest babies anyway but there was only one neonatal death in the seven years after LL stopped working there.

monsteramunch · 20/08/2023 20:33

@nolamesallowed

I see your point and understand it but there just isn't forensic evidence. It just doesn't exist. I can't convict a person on circumstantial. I truly hope they have caught the right person.

You seem confused about what is and isn't circumstantial evidence. You also seem to think circumstantial evidence is 'bad' evidence. This is not the case.

Forensic evidence like DNA / fingerprints is circumstantial, rather than direct evidence, as it still requires interpretation.

novalia89 · 20/08/2023 20:35

Orangebadger · 19/08/2023 08:26

I have followed this case since the start as I am a nurse. I struggled to get my head around it with each episode of the podcast.

I do think she is guilty though and we are unlikely to ever understand why. However one of my theories is that she actually did not intend to kill but to make these babies critically ill. She preferred looking after ITU babies, which is not wrong in itself. I know plenty of nurses that prefer working with critically ill patients. She tampered with their care to create more acuity, she enjoyed the drama, maybe a bit of a hero complex. When they died though, she seemed to equally enjoy consoling the parents and helping/ supporting other staff with their first neonatal death. It was like she was creating all the problems so people could see how good she was at dealing with them. Good in a crisis etc, basically hero worship.
So I am not convinced she initially set out to kill, but when babies did die she didn't stop. And tampering with their care regardless is attempted murder so just as bad. I may be totally wrong, but it's the only explanation that even slightly makes sense to me. I don't think she has any long term mental health problems, she has PTSD but this was after her investigation.

I'm not sure that she initially set out to kill, but maybe the thrill or the attention or just the more she did, the less it bothered her so went further. I'm not sure.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 20/08/2023 20:36

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 20:21

There are stats yes.

I sincerely hope they will be used in any defence she launches (assuming she doesn't kill herself before then).

And all this empty rhetoric about juries finding people guilty so that's the end of it.

No. Miscarriages of justice happen even in extremely high profile cases. Often the sort of atmosphere we have now. An NHS under scrutiny under huge pressure, govt under pressure, police under pressure, public law defence funding under pressure and someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

She’s had her defence. Why was none of this “evidence” or stats put forward there?

she’s not innocent she’s not a victim of a miscarriage of justice. She’s where she should be and if she kills herself so what.

BIossomtoes · 20/08/2023 20:36

There are stats yes.

Can we have a link to them, please?

AvocadotoastORahouse · 20/08/2023 20:37

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 15:37

I wouldn't have found her guilty. I just wouldn't have been able to.

Why not?

After 10 months of evidence, I'd hope you'd weigh it all up for reasonable doubt like a responsible person would.

Otherwise please never ever do jury duty.

BIossomtoes · 20/08/2023 20:40

BeenThereDoneThat101 · 20/08/2023 20:24

no, it wasn’t neonatal deaths, it was perinatal deaths i.e. deaths during childbirth. Totally different.

The neonatal deaths stopped when she was removed from the department, the unit was since downgraded so they don’t take the sickest babies anyway but there was only one neonatal death in the seven years after LL stopped working there.

That’s what I thought too. Which is why I requested a link.

BeenThereDoneThat101 · 20/08/2023 20:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AvocadotoastORahouse · 20/08/2023 20:43

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 16:30

@itsgettingweird truly just because there is a lack of hard forensic evidence and experience in that sector of medicine. I would very easily change my mind if there was a single piece of forensics tying her to it. I truly wish in a weird way I could blame her for the deaths but I can't. It means for me- in my mind- we (I) have to look for and at a wider variety of reasons for the deaths and that to me- is more frightening.

What about the insulin cases? That's evidence. Even LL and her defence accepted it couldn't be natural. It was introduced to the babies to harm. That's fact.

novalia89 · 20/08/2023 20:44

SisterAgatha · 19/08/2023 09:36

Plus her text messages. They are so self indulgent.

”they will look silly, not me”
how flippant a way to discuss a premature baby murder investigation

Her text messages are what convinced me (I haven't read all the case and it's more of I didn't want to believe that she was guilty because she may have been incompetant and overworked).
I know someone who sends texts like this and she is very manipulative. It's always 'poor me, I will not be able to cope thinking about them' 'I'm just not good enough' 'sorry for bothering you, you won't understand, no one does' (so they come back with I do. She manipulates everyone into doing and saying what she wants and says it's because she has low self esteem, but she knows exactly what to do to get the attention or for them to spend time with her. So many people have stopped talking to her entirely.

Zonder · 20/08/2023 20:44

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 20:21

There are stats yes.

I sincerely hope they will be used in any defence she launches (assuming she doesn't kill herself before then).

And all this empty rhetoric about juries finding people guilty so that's the end of it.

No. Miscarriages of justice happen even in extremely high profile cases. Often the sort of atmosphere we have now. An NHS under scrutiny under huge pressure, govt under pressure, police under pressure, public law defence funding under pressure and someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Did you get those stats from that "science" website a couple of people have already posted?

novalia89 · 20/08/2023 20:47

bellac11 · 19/08/2023 09:47

I havent been able to read the whole of the other thread and tyring to find the best articles to read is a bit tricky but I have some questions that others might already know the answer to

  • how was she able to take her dad into a mediation or disciplinary at work
  • how did she develop PTSD from being arrested, who diagnosed this, seems a bit extreme to me
  • I dont believe she is mentally unwell in the way we would describe that, she is emotionally abnormal to be sure, probably a narccistic psychopath, theres no evidence of insanity
  • I dont see anything particular in her childhood which would have led to such a deviation in development, its quite an odd one
  • I dont understand the references to her 'childlike' bedroom, just looks like a normal bedroom to me
  • I dont buy the theory that killing the babies was caused by her wanting the clinician to come running/to discuss their deaths with him, theres tons of ways of seeking a mans attention and it seems she had his attention anyway
  • 'I dont understand the references to her 'childlike' bedroom, just looks like a normal bedroom to me
This is a very minor thing but I thought the same. This bedroom looks like mine, a single female of a similar age and I did have a teddy on my bed a year or two ago which is one from my childhood which worked it's way into my house. It's on top of my wardrobe now though. The sticker is similar to 'live laugh love' and the lights just look like a student bedroom. After reading this article I freaked out a bit and tried to make my room less 'childlike'.

The notebook is a bit childish, but who knows where she got that from?

DysonSpheres · 20/08/2023 20:51

Zonder · 20/08/2023 20:44

Did you get those stats from that "science" website a couple of people have already posted?

No. I don't know the site in question and haven't read the full thread. Could someone post the link?

Her defence seem to have decided that their best bet was to go with the sewerage causing possible bacteria or viral outbreak hence the plumber being the only witness and seem to have decided not to tackle the 'expert' claims. I don't know how much money factors into hiring expert witnesses or not. That may have been a factor.

novalia89 · 20/08/2023 20:51

TheShellBeach · 20/08/2023 18:05

And not one profile of her sounds remotely convincing as a mass murderer - so far, anyway

Well that doesn't surprise me at all.

The Yorkshire Ripper was regarded as a lovely man, a good friend and a faithful, kind husband by all who knew him. After he was arrested, charged and convicted his family and friends could not reconcile the Peter Sutcliffe they knew with the vicious serial killer who turned out to be a manipulative psychopath.

Even on panorama she was described as 'the untold story of Britain's most unlikely serial killer'. Why? why was she the most unlikely? Who would be the most likely? Our prejudices are showing even in the reporting.

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