My husband is trans ftm AMA

[WhatOnFuckingEarth]

That’s about it. My husband is a heterosexual trans man and I’m a heterosexual cisgendered woman. We have two kids conceived via IVF (aged 2.5 months and 2 years). He is 5 years on testosterone and 8 years post double mastectomy, 3 years post phalloplasty, 2 years post final genital surgery.

@Ohfudgeit

They do change sex though. Not their genetic makeup, but they do change sex.

Finally I understand why you two have been having this row for pages and pages.

Sex=genetic make-up. You can't change that so you can't change sex.

You can however change yourself so that you can live as the other sex, and hopefully have a full and fulfilling life, and I am all in favour of that for those for whom it is necessary for their personal wellbeing.

didn't know that cis was not allowed on MN? That's a bizarre choice if that is what HQ have decided. It's usually used in discussions around trans, to specify exactly what's what. It's not generally used outside of that.

It implies that everyone shares a belief in gender identity ideology. We don't. It's often considered inflammatory to refer to the group of biological women who don't consider themselves "trans" as a whole, or call other posters that. Particularly on FWR. It's fine if you want to adopt it as an identity label for yourself. But not really on to label people who don't agree with your beliefs.

I don't get how people can be so deliberately obtuse about understanding that her husband is now a man

He isn't a man and never will be. There's nothing obtuse about it.

Look at you working so hard on your shitty little micro aggression - pathetic.

Look at you trying to police women's speech and make them say things they don't believe. She didn't misgender anyone. You're going to have to leave it at that and stop being so controlling.

He isn't a man and never will be. There's nothing obtuse about it.

This. We don't have to believe it. We can be polite, while completely disbelieving any of it.

@PotholeParadise We share the division of housework equally between us. My husband works as a maths lecturer and has noticed that he gets more respect from male students compared to female lecturers.
@TeaAndHobnob Related to my answer above at work before he was a passing man he experienced discrimination from both colleagues and students.
@VirginiaWolverine Many people assume that my dh must be an ultra vocal activist and wants people to know he is trans when in actual fact he is very introverted. He has taken years to choose this path and it has taken a long time which is contrary to many opinions on here. He is also very educated and critical minded which goes against what many think. We have noticed differing attitudes towards trans people, not less discrimination but more people knowing what it means etc.
@Soontobe60 I don’t really know if I’d still find him attractive as when I’d met him he’d already begun his transition. He looked very masculine (he’s 5ft9 and fairly muscular) before his transition. So possibly?

Well I don't engage with the people on FWR so I couldn't give a shite what they consider themselves lol. They clearly don't give a shite about what other people consider themselves, so I extend them the same privilege.

Yes, that's the point. But the word is often deleted, just like misgendering would equally be.

It' is giving Mummy's a bad name.

Could this BE more twee?😂

They do change sex though. Not their genetic makeup, but they do change sex.

How does this work then? I’m totally on board with the fact that an individual can present however they wish to present and identify however they wish to identify. I really struggle with an ideological stance which requires us to deny scientific fact to agree with it. So if you’re able to explain the biology behind this assertion, it would be useful.

@Ohfudgeit

Well I don't engage with the people on FWR so I couldn't give a shite what they consider themselves lol. They clearly don't give a shite about what other people consider themselves, so I extend them the same privilege.

Perhaps you should. You wouldn't have spent goodness knows how many pages trying to argue 2+2=5 to escalate a row about someone else's life instead of just saying something like 'I think it's respectful to use he and to refer to him as a man'.

You weren't helping the OP or her husband during any of that.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Well I don't engage with the people on FWR so I couldn't give a shite what they consider themselves lol. They clearly don't give a shite about what other people consider themselves, so I extend them the same privilege.

Yes, that's the point. But the word is often deleted, just like misgendering would equally be.

But op has only used it to describe herself. Why can't she call herself whatever she wants?

What is he then, if not a man?

Transman. And therefore female.

OP I just sent a PM becaue I wasn't sure if you would be back

But op has only used it to describe herself. Why can't she call herself whatever she wants?

That's exactly what I said, if you'd bothered to read my post, Hooves

It's funny how the people who know trans people have no issues, yet those who don't know trans people have plenty of issues.

That superpower you have of knowing who people know in real life is truly amazing.

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]I think it would be great if someone could start a 'I'm GC- AMA' thread

I doubt anyone has time for that. But you could start a thread in FWR with good faith questions, or read the many past threads?

Start here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me[/quote]
Thank you @Ereshkigalangcleg just starting to read through this thread now. Already raised something I hadn't considered before re: workplace gender quotas on CEO/trust boards etc. And I think the penny is starting to finally drop for me about the reasons why some people see trans rights as eroding women's rights. It is so helpful to have practical, real life examples being given rather than just people stating endlessly 'trans women aren't women'.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But op has only used it to describe herself. Why can't she call herself whatever she wants?

That's exactly what I said, if you'd bothered to read my post, Hooves

Sorry, where did you say she can use it to describe herself? Your post said

Yes, that's the point. But the word is often deleted, just like misgendering would equally be.

It's funny how the people who know trans people have no issues, yet those who don't know trans people have plenty of issues. There's a word for that - ignorance.

How do you know who I know and don’t know? You’re just embarrassing yourself now.

@Bluepolkadots42 sorry, I am going to go through that bit by bit again. It seems to be the only way to make sure we can carry on politely agreing to disagree - a real discussion is bloody rare here, thank you

I guess we disagree on that initial starting point- 'transwomen aren't women, they're a subset of men'. I have to admit I find that very odd, as transwomen by definition are not women, or why would they be transitioning? They are genetically male, usually male bodied with minor facial and breast surgery, penis intact.

I also disagree that transwomen have same privileges as women. Mmmm! We may be at cross purposes there. Transwomen have the same human rights as women. They have protections under the EA2010 but not the same as women as those additonal protections are sex based! But they are given additonal legal protection, te same as women, disabled people etc.

Like any minority transwomen are more likely to encounter discrimination because they aren't 'the status quo'. Yep! Which makes the discrimination they encounter the same as that of many ther people, for many other reasons. But not the same as women when you break it down into who dies and how?

Based on unofficial figures (because official figures aren't kept on this apparently) trans people are more likely to face violent crime in the UK than non-trans people. Ah! I remember a thread about that programme. There are figures. One transwoman was killed last year(?) in the UK, there was only 1 over a number of years. Meanwhile 2+ women a week are killed by their partners. There are also ONS stats that show transwomen are slightly more likely to be the perpetrator of violence than men!

I think it is possible to acknowledge that transwomen are more likely to face discrimination than women as well as to acknowledge that women still face discrimination and less privileges than males. I think it would be nice if we could discuss the truth behind that statement without the TRA responses as seen here, on Twitter, in real life, doxxing, police action, at womens meetings etc. Women are trying to discuss this. To set boundaries they consider they need to feel and be safe. TRAs are overleaping and refusing any discussion, refusing and thrteaning with violence. Why?

How will the skewing of stats by including crimes committed by transwomen in female crime stats impact women? How would it impact you or I personally in our day to day lives? Really? There are so many ways. If you think about why thiose figures are collected in the first place - crime, health, any social data. Why is it collected?

I must confess I'm not a huge twitter user anymore, but never seen anything on there where people have claimed transwomen are the most vulnerable group on planet or whatever other hyperbolic statement a PP made. I am not a twitter user at all yet I can do a quick Google search and find many... and many are collated on many FWR threads - as are the threats of violence!

I have seen posts flagging the problems/discrimination transwomen experience. How does a transwoman speaking out about their lived experiences of crime/discrimination/prejudice take anything away from other women speaking their lived experiences of crime/discrimination/prejudice etc? It doesn't until they demand to use the same safe spaces as women. Then rape crisis centres are no longer safe spaces for women. The presence of a male bodied person, any male bodied person will be scary for some. That's why such places exist in the first place. Fought for, funded by, staffed by and for women. What kind of person would want to make such places less effective?

Again- can the 2 not exist side by side without one detracting from the other? Side by side in the very same space, the same sport, the same law? No. Because transwomen are men and there are sex segregated spaces, sports, laws, etc etc etc for good reasons. Even if transwomen do not believe those reasons are valid any more tehya re not their spaces to give away and women have the right to say no, to be heard and to speak without threats of violence.

You type as though there has been no history of TRA aggression, as though there is no history behind this.

Have you read any of the threads on Feminist Chat?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights

For all intents and purposes, he is a man, a husband and a father.

In OP's private life, I entirely agree. I would (out of politeness) use correct pronouns.

The problem comes when you push "all intents and purposes" into the public realm. To give just one example, the RFU has just reviewed all the scientific research on male body strength post transition and use of androgen blockers, and have decided it's not safe to expect women to play against transwomen. Would we want a situation where this decision could be over-ruled by a court of law on the grounds that the law had been changed such that "trans women are women" was now written into equalities legislation? (If I'm reading her right, OP, like me, does not think this would be a good outcome.)