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Only consenting to receiving medical treatment from a female is not acceptable

(1000 Posts)
Siameasy Sat 23-Nov-19 18:28:46

mobile.twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1198215833006362630

One NHS trust says it’s unacceptable for women to say they only consent to medical treatment from “natal females”. I find this completely outrageous and couldn’t find a thread on it already. Bloody hell!

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost Sat 23-Nov-19 18:34:00

What you have to understand is you might hurt a trans-womans feelings.

Nothing else other than that matters.

And now they've had stonewall training they WILL NEVER back-tread.

CranberriesChoccy Sat 23-Nov-19 18:37:54

Playing devil's advocate here, but could a patient be considered to be discriminating against a medical professional on the basis of sex?

JasBBGG Sat 23-Nov-19 18:39:05

Hmmm whilst I may prefer females generally for health issues the best gynaecologist I had was a man. i think even with religious views etc etc you have to be realistic. What if there aren't any female staff? What are you going to do? If you need life saving surgery and the consultant is a man are you going to die instead? I was in A&E with my Nan yesterday, she was there 12 hours. I didn't care whether it was man, woman or an out and proud trans as long as she got seen.

pombear Sat 23-Nov-19 18:39:22

I was just putting one together too - but struggling to attach images of twitter hreads. If anyone's able to, that would be really useful.

It gets worse:
twitter.com/Scottish_Women/status/1198290127627456512

Susan Sinclair
@Scottish_Women
Case study from NHS policy. If a woman is agitated cos there is a man on her ward then staff should 're-iterate that the ward is female only & that there are no men present.' If she continues to be vocal then 'Ultimately it may be the complainant who is required to be removed.'!!

The whole thread is shock

Clare B Dimyon MBE raised the alert this morning, following the use of her letters to an NHS Trust were used as 'highly discriminatory':

twitter.com/BDimyon/status/1198147981943476225
@BDimyon
Replying to @lubelluledotcom @wwwritingclub
More BREAKING NEWS: #Brighton #NHS healthcare is conditional upon accepting the bullying of #Female patients who express medical need wrt same-biological sex exemptions for #Mammogram. (They missed that out, obviously.

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 23-Nov-19 18:39:42

I find it unacceptable to insist that the first consideration of a female patient is to meet the emotional needs of a health professional who wants their identity respected.

This would exclude a significant number of women from accessing health care, for refusing or being unable to enter into a pretence of belief. It's ridiculous. It's untenable. It stands healthcare on its head, healthcare professionals not able to put other people's needs before their own and show tolerance for faith, belief, disability, trauma, has absolutely no business being in that line of work.

This is going to have to be taken to court, as publically as possible, in yet another demonstration of what Stonewallism means, how deluded it is, and how incompatible this political group is determined to be with anyone else's needs and rights.

BigFatLiar Sat 23-Nov-19 18:41:42

Don't see the problem. A doctor is a doctor, male or female, If I'm ill I want to see a doctor their sex/gender is of no interest to me only thing that matters is are they a decent doctor. Same goes for nurses/dentist/paramedics.
Don't envisage lying in the road at a car accident telling them to send away the paramedics until one of a different sex is available.

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 23-Nov-19 18:45:22

Can you envisage that possibly other women don't feel the same way as you, (you know, women of minority faiths for example) and possibly have different needs?

And so you personally being fine with it doesn't make it fine to force those women? Or are you in favour of force it through and if some women won't access health care whatever, it's their problem?

And that voluntary intimate care is slightly different from first aid from a paramedic?

MrsWooster Sat 23-Nov-19 18:45:57

bigfatliar no one is saying you need to request a specific sex of Carer; do you think that someone for whom it IS important should be allowed to do so?

PanamaPattie Sat 23-Nov-19 18:48:37

Choice is everything. My comfort and dignity trumps any HCPs feelings.

pombear Sat 23-Nov-19 18:50:34

Thing is BigFatLiar and Jas, it's not always about us. I'm happy to have medical treatment from both sexes (though, to be honest, I feel more comfortable at cervical screenings and in the future for mammograms with healthcare professionals of the same sex).

But there are a lot of women, for many different reasons, who can't or don't want this. I don't think it's for me to trample over their needs, just because I'm OK with it.

(awaits other familiar arguments)

JasBBGG Sat 23-Nov-19 18:50:56

Don't all our NHS services offer a female chaperone where a male has to do an intimate examination anyway?
Look I don't enjoy these examinations any more than anyone else and would rather a female but it simply isn't always possible. What I saw yesterday the NHS is in crisis. If it's a case of have your examination now or wait 6 months for a female I'll take it now. Whilst I appreciate people have religious views I don't think this should come in the way of your health. I say this to my mum who would refuse a blood transfusion - it's ridiculous. My only sympathy within this would be to women who have been abused and are genuinely scared of men but again if it is the only option and you have a chaperone what else can be done?

pombear Sat 23-Nov-19 18:54:05

That raises a few questions Jas
Why would our NHS services offer a female chaperson where a male has to do an intimate examination?

Why is this, do you think?

Why do we have single-sex wards? What made the NHS think the sexes might be a good thing to separate in hospital?

And if a male declares that they've always felt like a female, therefore they are a female, does that mean a chaperone is no longer needed? If so, what's changed?

pombear Sat 23-Nov-19 18:54:37

Chaperone (no idea what a chaperson looks like!)

JasBBGG Sat 23-Nov-19 18:55:53

They offer a chaperone to make you feel comfortable knowing some women aren't. That's fair enough right?

I am all for single sex wards that's a whole different issue.

This is about trust in professionals.

Uncompromisingwoman Sat 23-Nov-19 18:56:57

Women have nothing to fear from male medics - oh no hmm.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/09/gp-molested-25-female-patients-failed-report-decades-doctor/

metro.co.uk/2019/09/09/doctor-struck-off-secretly-taking-19000-photos-videos-female-patients-10711941/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48299118

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/doctor-secretly-filmed-female-patients-5668538

www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/news/sharif-fattah-guilty-of-patient-sex-offences/3726996/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30210272

www.medpagetoday.com/publichealthpolicy/ethics/77605

Kilbranan Sat 23-Nov-19 18:57:14

Good for you big fat liar what about women who feel differently due to being victim of male violence?? Don’t you care about them being able to access healthcare?
It is the most basic thing to be able to access same sex healthcare worker for intimate exams and as others have pointed out, id be seriously worried about the motivation of any trans person wishing to do this type of work knowing they were making the patient feel uncomfortable.

thirdfiddle Sat 23-Nov-19 18:58:24

That's horrific. When they're already struggling with getting people to take up smear tests etc. It should be about the patient not the medic's feelings.
I don't think many (any?) people would care in critical situations but when it comes to non emergency sensitive issues anything that encourages vulnerable patients to seek help should be encouraged.

ErrolTheDragon Sat 23-Nov-19 18:58:28

Lack of empathy for other women's needs isn't really something I'd want to demonstrate in a feminism board, tbh.

And it's bloody awful to see people in the NHS doing so.

NewarkShark Sat 23-Nov-19 18:58:47

If a request to be seen by a female isn’t possible due to resources then that is one thing (not really good enough but I do get the NHS pressures).

The problem arises where it would be possible to be seen by a natal female but the hospital decides that a transgender woman counts as female and removes the right of the patient to elect someone with the same anatomy as them.

I generally have no issue being treated by men or women, transgender or otherwise, but respect that others do. the one time I did request a female (examination of infected stitches after giving birth), I wouldn’t have wanted a transgender woman. A transgender man would have been fine. The point is it was a purely physical examination and identity had fuck all to do with it. I wanted someone who shared my anatomy.

saraclara Sat 23-Nov-19 19:00:18

So if a male patient says he'll only be treated by a male doctor, is that okay?

BigFatLiar Sat 23-Nov-19 19:00:47

Why would our NHS services offer a female chaperson where a male has to do an intimate examination?

I think its protection for both the patient and the doctor.

I think we all should have the right to see a doctor/HCP of a preferred sex but need to accept it isn't always possible. Our local surgery will allow you to ask for a specific doctor if you want but you have to be willing to wait for an available appointment. Tough luck on the men though as we have one pt male GP all the others are female.

Michelleoftheresistance Sat 23-Nov-19 19:00:55

No one is talking about patients rejecting care generally , they're talking about specific situations where a female patient may reasonably do what female patients have always been allowed to do for good reason and request a female practitioner. Smears and mammograms being typical examples.

Those reasons have not disappeared.

What has changed is that now we have people born male who would like to be treated as if they were the opposite sex with uninterrupted affirmation. There are limits to how far other people should be forced to enable a belief they actually don't hold, particularly in situations that cause them distress and to be doubtful about or withhold their consent.

I live in an area with a high Muslim population, many of whom are elderly and many of whom do not speak English. My GP surgery goes to huge lengths to try and encourage those women to access health care, to know they have access to chaperones, to female health care professionals. When they request this female hcp and they're faced with someone they know is biologically male but they are expected to not show or respond to this for the sake of that person's feelings - who exactly benefits from this? Because it sure as hell isn't the patient. Who surely is the first concern in this situation.

pombear Sat 23-Nov-19 19:01:32

And the healthcare professionals roles that carry out mammograms, cervical smears, and general ward duties will be nursing and healthcare assistants who overwhelmingly are...guess what... female!

So the 'that's just stupid, you'll be delaying your treatment' argument falls down a little. As Michelle says, involuntary intimate care is very different from unplanned emergency life-saving care.

littlbrowndog Sat 23-Nov-19 19:01:49

Erasing of women’s and girls boundaries.

That’s what this is

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