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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #68

850 replies

nauticant · 04/10/2026 13:02

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

Thread 67: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584523-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-67 1 October 2026 to ????

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32
HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 10:25

KeepupKardigans · 25/10/2026 10:21

Pathology, for a greater understanding of the human body, male and female.

Ha. Bit too triggering, I imagine!

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 25/10/2026 10:33

My understanding is that Australian hospitals make much more use of single rooms rather than multi-bed wards.

So any woman refusing care from Upton would not only have to do so face to face, but quite possibly while alone with him. Remembering that he's a 6ft3 former rugby player of proven unstable temperament.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 10:35

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 09:47

Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Upton knows damn well that this is a highly contested ideology and that only a minority of people believe he is actually a woman. If he held himself to the highest of standards, as anyone in that profession should, he would assume that any woman asking for a female doctor is much more likely to mean an actual female doctor rather than a man who thinks he is a woman. He should stand down in every single such case, unless a woman specifically says, unprompted, that she doesn't mind seeing a trans-identified male.

Upton is what we women call a creep. He would have been a creep even if he wasn't trans-identified. Woman are pretty good at spotting creeps. Men, less so.

Edit for clarity

Edited

Precisely.

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 25/10/2026 10:42

Well the BMA statement shows what can we articulated when we take emotion out of the equation and just look at the facts.

As a non feminine woman I particularly like

Cisgender people, often women who do not meet society’s narrow expectations of femininity, are already finding they are being challenged when they try to access the single-sex spaces the guidance would expect them to.

Now if we just bring back mixed sex wards grouped by speciality even if that means mixed bays and focus on actual treatment! Mixing wards means they could actually look at meeting the recommendations in section 9 of the CQC guidelines without an obsessions with genotypes and phenotypes!!

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/statement-nhs-guidance-on-the-provision-of-single-sex-services-and-facilities

patient alone

STATEMENT: NHS guidance on the provision of single-sex services and facilities

The BMA has responded to the NHS Guidance on single-sex services and facilities 

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/statement-nhs-guidance-on-the-provision-of-single-sex-services-and-facilities

StealthTroublemaker · 25/10/2026 10:45

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 25/10/2026 10:42

Well the BMA statement shows what can we articulated when we take emotion out of the equation and just look at the facts.

As a non feminine woman I particularly like

Cisgender people, often women who do not meet society’s narrow expectations of femininity, are already finding they are being challenged when they try to access the single-sex spaces the guidance would expect them to.

Now if we just bring back mixed sex wards grouped by speciality even if that means mixed bays and focus on actual treatment! Mixing wards means they could actually look at meeting the recommendations in section 9 of the CQC guidelines without an obsessions with genotypes and phenotypes!!

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/statement-nhs-guidance-on-the-provision-of-single-sex-services-and-facilities

But if all wards are mixed sex, and TIM claim they are unsafe in male spaces, how will putting them in wards with the very males they are afraid of help them? Either they are perfectly safe on male wards so should be put there, or they are not, so putting them on mixed sex wards will be dangerous? Which is it?

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 25/10/2026 11:12

The BMA can get in the bin. They've clearly forgotten why we have singe-sex ward regulations. (They could read this as a reminder https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6107.full.)

Mixing wards was a Thatcherite exercise in putting finacial efficiency ahead of patient needs. It lasted only a brief period as official policy because nobody outside the Treasury actually liked it. Not doctors, not nurses, not patients. My mum spent 3 months on a mixed cardiac ward while that capitalist nonsense was in full flow. It was horrific.

borntobequiet · 25/10/2026 11:20

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 09:47

Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Upton knows damn well that this is a highly contested ideology and that only a minority of people believe he is actually a woman. If he held himself to the highest of standards, as anyone in that profession should, he would assume that any woman asking for a female doctor is much more likely to mean an actual female doctor rather than a man who thinks he is a woman. He should stand down in every single such case, unless a woman specifically says, unprompted, that she doesn't mind seeing a trans-identified male.

Upton is what we women call a creep. He would have been a creep even if he wasn't trans-identified. Woman are pretty good at spotting creeps. Men, less so.

Edit for clarity

Edited

Upton is what we women call a creep. He would have been a creep even if he wasn't trans-identified. Woman are pretty good at spotting creeps.

Spot on characterisation.

borntobequiet · 25/10/2026 11:23

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 25/10/2026 10:33

My understanding is that Australian hospitals make much more use of single rooms rather than multi-bed wards.

So any woman refusing care from Upton would not only have to do so face to face, but quite possibly while alone with him. Remembering that he's a 6ft3 former rugby player of proven unstable temperament.

I understand that he played hockey, and his physique is much more that of a hockey player.
Men’s hockey is a very physical and often vicious game.

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 25/10/2026 11:38

StealthTroublemaker · 25/10/2026 10:45

But if all wards are mixed sex, and TIM claim they are unsafe in male spaces, how will putting them in wards with the very males they are afraid of help them? Either they are perfectly safe on male wards so should be put there, or they are not, so putting them on mixed sex wards will be dangerous? Which is it?

How about neither? The act of creating single sex spaces is what creates the risk to men and woman because of herd mentality mixing them removes that mentality creating a safe space.

Put a transwoman on a single sex male ward and you have the mentality of oh he’s trans, he’s different, why would any one do that along with the gay jokes. Put an openly masculine woman on a female ward and you get the herd mentality of is it man, are they dangerous (public perception perpetrated by the media), why do they look like that, what are they trying to prove. This happens in all spaces that are segregated by gender, remove that gender segregation and you just see the person.

I get judged for not conforming to the female stereotype in my appearance and views on gender. Why should a person like that face the questions just to make someone more “comfortable” or conform to someone else’s ideas around privacy and dignity

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/10/2026 12:01

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 25/10/2026 11:38

How about neither? The act of creating single sex spaces is what creates the risk to men and woman because of herd mentality mixing them removes that mentality creating a safe space.

Put a transwoman on a single sex male ward and you have the mentality of oh he’s trans, he’s different, why would any one do that along with the gay jokes. Put an openly masculine woman on a female ward and you get the herd mentality of is it man, are they dangerous (public perception perpetrated by the media), why do they look like that, what are they trying to prove. This happens in all spaces that are segregated by gender, remove that gender segregation and you just see the person.

I get judged for not conforming to the female stereotype in my appearance and views on gender. Why should a person like that face the questions just to make someone more “comfortable” or conform to someone else’s ideas around privacy and dignity

Sorry coffee - I may have misunderstood this.
Are you saying that it's the act of creating single sex spaces - showers, changing rooms, wards, prison cells, sports etc that the problem. If we just stopped seeing women as women and saw them as "people" all the problems would disappear?

CassOle · 25/10/2026 12:01

'How about neither? The act of creating single sex spaces is what creates the risk to men and woman because of herd mentality mixing them removes that mentality creating a safe space.'

I can tell that the above wasn't written by someone who has been badly injured leading them to be bed bound and then put on a mixed sex ward.

Keeptoiletssafe · 25/10/2026 12:02

I sometimes wonder if people think hospitals are like hotels. The reason you have bays with curtains the nurses like to keep open, is that nurses (and other patients!) can keep an eye on you if anything goes wrong or you need anything. If multiple people are requiring assistance, they can assess priorities. It’s time, space and cost efficient. It’s a good idea to have infectious or some immunocompromised people in a separate room. But the rest of us are safer in a larger room where we can be seen. It’s safeguarding too.

Things I have done for others who aren't mobile because nurses are dealing with other things - fetched bed pans, fetched cups of water, refilled jugs of water, fetched extra blankets, picked things off the floor (air pods, phone), plugged in phone charger, put a bed pan under a leaky bed, closed blinds, fetched bowls to vomit in, open blinds, got snacks out of bags, comforted a scared patient by chatting about silly tv programmes, drawn curtains, pulled up blankets.

CassOle · 25/10/2026 12:05

Many people don't understand what being truly vulnerable is. They cannot imagine what it is like to be truly bed bound.

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 12:08

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/10/2026 12:01

Sorry coffee - I may have misunderstood this.
Are you saying that it's the act of creating single sex spaces - showers, changing rooms, wards, prison cells, sports etc that the problem. If we just stopped seeing women as women and saw them as "people" all the problems would disappear?

Ah yes, if we stopped separating women and men for contact sports women's skulls would magically get thicker

🙄

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/10/2026 12:10

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 12:08

Ah yes, if we stopped separating women and men for contact sports women's skulls would magically get thicker

🙄

And presumably coffee's of the opinion that Sandie should have stripped in front of Upton as he expected?
Not sure coffee's thought this through but we may yet be enlightened.

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 12:17

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/10/2026 12:10

And presumably coffee's of the opinion that Sandie should have stripped in front of Upton as he expected?
Not sure coffee's thought this through but we may yet be enlightened.

Presumably both Sandie and the Dr would turn into featureless action man bodied 'people' which is great. Yay we are all the same.

Obviously the human race would die out but hey happy trans people so.....

ImNotAsCooperativeAsYouMightWantAWomanToBe · 25/10/2026 12:20

"The act of creating single sex spaces is what creates the risk to men and woman because of herd mentality mixing them removes that mentality creating a safe space."

I have read some bollocks on this board over the years, but there's always more to come isn't there? Let's just put the lions in with the gazelles in the zoo eh? What could possibly go wrong...

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 25/10/2026 12:24

borntobequiet · 25/10/2026 11:23

I understand that he played hockey, and his physique is much more that of a hockey player.
Men’s hockey is a very physical and often vicious game.

Apologies. I believe you're correct about the sport. Similar result though - you'd be facing a strong, physically imposing man. It would be reasonable for a woman to be fearful of provoking him.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 25/10/2026 12:27

The act of creating single sex spaces is what creates the risk to men and woman because of herd mentality mixing them removes that mentality creating a safe space.

Bollocks. Police statistics show mixed sex changing villages have much higher levels of voyerism and assault than single sex ones. To the extent that police forces have actually lodged formal objections to council plans to introduce them in leisure centes. Being mixed doesn't magically make them safe.

MyAmpleSheep · 25/10/2026 12:39

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 25/10/2026 12:27

The act of creating single sex spaces is what creates the risk to men and woman because of herd mentality mixing them removes that mentality creating a safe space.

Bollocks. Police statistics show mixed sex changing villages have much higher levels of voyerism and assault than single sex ones. To the extent that police forces have actually lodged formal objections to council plans to introduce them in leisure centes. Being mixed doesn't magically make them safe.

Citation:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxqll74xnpo

A computer generated image of what the pool at the proposed new Stevenage leisure centre could look like. There are ten swimming lanes with a number of people walking beside the pool. There are seats for people to sit to the right of the pool.

Voyeurism concerns at Stevenage pool's mixed changing rooms

A police officer suggests plans to retain mixed facilities at a leisure centre be reconsidered.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxqll74xnpo

StellaAndCrow · 25/10/2026 12:42

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 09:47

Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Upton knows damn well that this is a highly contested ideology and that only a minority of people believe he is actually a woman. If he held himself to the highest of standards, as anyone in that profession should, he would assume that any woman asking for a female doctor is much more likely to mean an actual female doctor rather than a man who thinks he is a woman. He should stand down in every single such case, unless a woman specifically says, unprompted, that she doesn't mind seeing a trans-identified male.

Upton is what we women call a creep. He would have been a creep even if he wasn't trans-identified. Woman are pretty good at spotting creeps. Men, less so.

Edit for clarity

Edited

Yes.

"He should stand down in every single such case, unless a woman specifically says, unprompted, that she doesn't mind seeing a trans-identified male".

Has this ever happened? I can't imagine any scenario in which a woman would specifically request a female practitioner, but not mind if they're a trans-identified man.

Unless that woman is a TRA trying to make some kind of point of course, like Jolyon's wife claiming to be challenged in toilets after a mastectomy.

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 25/10/2026 12:48

Actually I have been vulnerable post c section and my husband was sent home to protect privacy and dignity. Absolute rubbish 😡 that lead to my wound opening up. That wouldn’t have happened if he had been on a lazy chair or even a sleeping bag on the floor to help with the baby.

Ive been insulted, filmed and spat at by other woman yet if a man walks into the free weights room in our 24/7 gym I don’t feel threatened. Replace that man with a woman of certain stereotype and I wonder if comments will be made, usually am I trying to look like a man (thanks I’ll take that as a compliment) so actually woman are the problem to me as none stereotypical woman!

We can all have opinions mine is the herd mentality that segregation creates is a bigger threat than mixed sex. In a world where everyone has a camera it’s not the unwanted videos I worry about it’s the snide comments which could hurt someone else worth for years to come.

Wishesandhorses · 25/10/2026 12:48

The act of creating single sex spaces is what creates the risk to men and woman because of herd mentality mixing them removes that mentality creating a safe space.

And the act of locking doors is what creates the risk of burglary because of herd mentality. Leaving them open removes that mentality, and burglary would cease immediately.

I think this kind of nonsense belongs in the philosophical wankery of the late 1940s and is best left there really.

MyAmpleSheep · 25/10/2026 12:52

StellaAndCrow · 25/10/2026 12:42

Yes.

"He should stand down in every single such case, unless a woman specifically says, unprompted, that she doesn't mind seeing a trans-identified male".

Has this ever happened? I can't imagine any scenario in which a woman would specifically request a female practitioner, but not mind if they're a trans-identified man.

Unless that woman is a TRA trying to make some kind of point of course, like Jolyon's wife claiming to be challenged in toilets after a mastectomy.

I can't imagine any scenario in which a woman would specifically request a female practitioner, but not mind if they're a trans-identified man.

I think this is a really important point. Upton is smart enough to know that, however plaintive his "I"m a biological woman" schtick might be. Treating a patient who you know or even suspect doesn't want to be treated by you is plainly abusive.If there is doubt about whether you have consent - you do not have consent. Treating a patient without consent is a gross abuse of the power inequality between doctor and patient.

StellaAndCrow · 25/10/2026 13:12

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 25/10/2026 12:48

Actually I have been vulnerable post c section and my husband was sent home to protect privacy and dignity. Absolute rubbish 😡 that lead to my wound opening up. That wouldn’t have happened if he had been on a lazy chair or even a sleeping bag on the floor to help with the baby.

Ive been insulted, filmed and spat at by other woman yet if a man walks into the free weights room in our 24/7 gym I don’t feel threatened. Replace that man with a woman of certain stereotype and I wonder if comments will be made, usually am I trying to look like a man (thanks I’ll take that as a compliment) so actually woman are the problem to me as none stereotypical woman!

We can all have opinions mine is the herd mentality that segregation creates is a bigger threat than mixed sex. In a world where everyone has a camera it’s not the unwanted videos I worry about it’s the snide comments which could hurt someone else worth for years to come.

"Unless that woman is a TRA trying to make some kind of point of course, like Jolyon's wife claiming to be challenged in toilets after a mastectomy".

Crikey I wasn't expecting it to happen quite so soon!😆