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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #68

850 replies

nauticant · 04/10/2026 13:02

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

Thread 67: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584523-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-67 1 October 2026 to ????

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32
NowSober · 25/10/2026 08:29

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:10

I'm book marking all these for the next time a pp insists there is no transphobia on these boards and demands evidence.

Dr Sam Hall is a very good example of why a "trans" person should not be employed as a doctor as they are totally blinded by their "trans" ideology. She should be struck off.

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:33

NowSober · 25/10/2026 08:29

Dr Sam Hall is a very good example of why a "trans" person should not be employed as a doctor as they are totally blinded by their "trans" ideology. She should be struck off.

Absolutely @NowSober

No doubt @Lacksie would consider any action against Sam Hall as discriminatory or even transphobia.

I do think or hope that now the exposure regarding Sarah Redvers treatment may open the eyes of even the most evangelical trans supporters.

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:33

NowSober · 25/10/2026 08:26

Yes. They have chosen to be "trans". If they want to present as the sex they are not they should realise that this restricts their employment choices.

Stop being trans or suffer the consequences?

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:35

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:33

Stop being trans or suffer the consequences?

Well @Lacksie women are suffering the consequences of going along with delusions of men who think they are women. Perhaps some consequences or a better word ‘reality’ might sharpen their minds as to what we have had to tolerate.

Any thoughts on the children impacted?

StealthTroublemaker · 25/10/2026 08:38

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 07:55

If you say feelings, you must be able to relate that feeling to any female, so à feeling that every female has

Really?

After an entire thread in which it’s been explained / demonstrated repeatedly and in detail why this conclusion- (must be able to relate that to a feeling every female has) -

does not logically follow from the premise (that someone experiences a feeling of being female),

you’re still just repeating it as a logical necessity?

There is no point to the conversation at all.

So is thst à no you can’t explain then? Why not just say that? How would a male know he “feels female”? What points of reference is he using to say he knows what a female feels like? There was a thread. Some posters tried to argue a male “just knows”. Batshit on that thread, batshit on this.

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:39

a "trans" person should not be employed as a doctor

Ah well. At least we're all being honest now as to what these tribunals are really about.

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 08:45

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:39

a "trans" person should not be employed as a doctor

Ah well. At least we're all being honest now as to what these tribunals are really about.

The tribunals are about women asserting their rights, to single sex spaces, to hold GC views, to not be compelled to regard a man as a woman because he says so.

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:46

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:39

a "trans" person should not be employed as a doctor

Ah well. At least we're all being honest now as to what these tribunals are really about.

The most recent tribunal @lacksie was about a woman hounded out of her job as a safeguarding lead for whistle blowing on a Dr - a woman pretending to be a man - giving out medicine to vulnerable children under the guise of gender affirming care - illegally - and the CEO of the NHS trust pointing blame at the safeguarding lead not the rogue doctor. So no that (trans) person should not have been employed as a doctor.

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:52

@Lacksie I would hope you could agree that you would not want your children treated by a rogue doctor like Sam Hall? Or is it nuanced?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/10/2026 08:54

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:46

The most recent tribunal @lacksie was about a woman hounded out of her job as a safeguarding lead for whistle blowing on a Dr - a woman pretending to be a man - giving out medicine to vulnerable children under the guise of gender affirming care - illegally - and the CEO of the NHS trust pointing blame at the safeguarding lead not the rogue doctor. So no that (trans) person should not have been employed as a doctor.

Edited

Good to see that Hilary Cass has weighed in on the dangerous behaviour of this doctor:

"For Cass, the scandal that has unfolded in Brighton “dwarfs” that of the Tavistock’s Gids. She called on the GMC to immediately suspend Hall. “I really would want to ask why he still has a licence to practise.”

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/sarah-redvers-tribunal-nhs-trans-doctor-qqm376zp2

Verifying Device

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/sarah-redvers-tribunal-nhs-trans-doctor-qqm376zp2

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 09:05

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 03:43

This is what Upton actually said when questioned under oath, according to the contemporaneous reporting by Tribunal Tweets.

Cunningham: What if a woman asks to see a female doctor?

Upton: I don’t see that I have to give personal information to patients. I have no obligation to do that.

Later, Cunningham presented the hypothetical case of a woman in A&E with unexplained heavy bleeding who had requested a female doctor.

Upton: If she wanted me to leave, I would and get someone else.

Cunningham then asked whether it was up to the patient to say she was uncomfortable with Upton.

Upton: That’s how it works.

Upton went on to explain that one could not assume a patient would reject a trans woman, and emphasised the importance of consent and making patients comfortable.

From Upton’s perspective.
Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Nor does she believe that being transgender creates an automatic obligation to disclose her personal medical history to patients.

However, she explicitly recognises that patients can refuse treatment from an individual doctor, that their wishes should be respected, and that another clinician should be found if they are uncomfortable.

In other words, Upton’s position is entirely consistent with her understanding of herself as a woman, while also recognising patients’ right to refuse treatment. Nothing in this exchange establishes that she has disregarded a patient’s wishes, still less that she has committed any wrongdoing.

Also this is all old news from the tribunal and doesn't establish she has done anything wrong at all in Australia.

Edited

It’s covered contemporaneously on this thread including TT posting and reactions from observers here which is better than whatever AI summary you’ve cobbled together. Many of us watched him and know what he said. He said he would treat a woman who specifically asked for a female doctor because he was a woman. This also goes back to an earlier case hearing where he also said this, which is why he was asked.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #10 | Mumsnet

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 09:12

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:33

Stop being trans or suffer the consequences?

We aren't the borg, we all have our own individual thoughts and feelings (who knew there wasn't a single woman feel ehh?). Personally I don't think that being trans means you shouldn't be a Dr, but I do think that putting your ideology above the needs of you patients puts you into that category.

Medics have to set aside their own feelings and beliefs to treat whoever is in front of them. Murders, rapists, child abusers all get treated if they are ill. So do racists and misogynists and bullies. If a Dr says (in court, under oath) that they would treat a woman who requested female care (even if they say they would back down if challenged) they are putting themself ahead of the patient. If Dr regards medical science as a matter of opinion they are putting themself ahead of the patient. It is that, in my opinion, that makes some trans people unsuited to medicine.

KeepupKardigans · 25/10/2026 09:13

If a doctor’s first duty is to ‘do no harm’, a patient’s consent to treatment must be based on truthfulness on the part of doctor etc. The report, as I interpret it is, the patient and her husband were not confident that their wishes would be respected if the patient was left alone. If I were in that situation I could not in all honesty have faith in the mental stability of a qualified male doctor who believed they were biologically female (as they stated) when my instinct alone would tell they were male and therefore based on logic somewhat delusional. I would feel the same if someone treating me presented as intoxicated by drugs or alcohol as they may be mentally impaired to my detriment. There is anecdotal evidence (NHS) of female patients threatened with treatment delays and/or deliberately being allocated a trans practitioner as a form of ideological punishment for noncompliance.
It’s a simple matter of consent and not right in a modern healthcare system.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 09:14

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 09:12

We aren't the borg, we all have our own individual thoughts and feelings (who knew there wasn't a single woman feel ehh?). Personally I don't think that being trans means you shouldn't be a Dr, but I do think that putting your ideology above the needs of you patients puts you into that category.

Medics have to set aside their own feelings and beliefs to treat whoever is in front of them. Murders, rapists, child abusers all get treated if they are ill. So do racists and misogynists and bullies. If a Dr says (in court, under oath) that they would treat a woman who requested female care (even if they say they would back down if challenged) they are putting themself ahead of the patient. If Dr regards medical science as a matter of opinion they are putting themself ahead of the patient. It is that, in my opinion, that makes some trans people unsuited to medicine.

It’s quite something reading the Mumsnet threads when Upton was being cross examined. How repellent most of us found him, his smug misogynistic narcissism and dominance displays we perceived.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 09:15

Even Lacksie admits that Upton “doesn’t see why he has to” tell patients asking for a woman doctor that he isn’t biologically female.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 09:16

He claims not to recognise the concept of biological sex, that’s in the previous thread to the one I linked with our real time reactions.

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 09:27

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 09:16

He claims not to recognise the concept of biological sex, that’s in the previous thread to the one I linked with our real time reactions.

It does worry me how many of the medical staff in Fife seem to have no idea of the physiological differences between men and women, how to tell them apart and perhaps most frightening of all that treatment or diagnosis might depend on whether the patient is male or female. There must be some interesting smear test and prostate exams up there!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 09:33

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 09:27

It does worry me how many of the medical staff in Fife seem to have no idea of the physiological differences between men and women, how to tell them apart and perhaps most frightening of all that treatment or diagnosis might depend on whether the patient is male or female. There must be some interesting smear test and prostate exams up there!

Indeed, so many professional people have beclowned themselves entirely on the altar of this batshit ideology.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 09:47

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 03:43

This is what Upton actually said when questioned under oath, according to the contemporaneous reporting by Tribunal Tweets.

Cunningham: What if a woman asks to see a female doctor?

Upton: I don’t see that I have to give personal information to patients. I have no obligation to do that.

Later, Cunningham presented the hypothetical case of a woman in A&E with unexplained heavy bleeding who had requested a female doctor.

Upton: If she wanted me to leave, I would and get someone else.

Cunningham then asked whether it was up to the patient to say she was uncomfortable with Upton.

Upton: That’s how it works.

Upton went on to explain that one could not assume a patient would reject a trans woman, and emphasised the importance of consent and making patients comfortable.

From Upton’s perspective.
Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Nor does she believe that being transgender creates an automatic obligation to disclose her personal medical history to patients.

However, she explicitly recognises that patients can refuse treatment from an individual doctor, that their wishes should be respected, and that another clinician should be found if they are uncomfortable.

In other words, Upton’s position is entirely consistent with her understanding of herself as a woman, while also recognising patients’ right to refuse treatment. Nothing in this exchange establishes that she has disregarded a patient’s wishes, still less that she has committed any wrongdoing.

Also this is all old news from the tribunal and doesn't establish she has done anything wrong at all in Australia.

Edited

Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Upton knows damn well that this is a highly contested ideology and that only a minority of people believe he is actually a woman. If he held himself to the highest of standards, as anyone in that profession should, he would assume that any woman asking for a female doctor is much more likely to mean an actual female doctor rather than a man who thinks he is a woman. He should stand down in every single such case, unless a woman specifically says, unprompted, that she doesn't mind seeing a trans-identified male.

Upton is what we women call a creep. He would have been a creep even if he wasn't trans-identified. Woman are pretty good at spotting creeps. Men, less so.

Edit for clarity

Wishesandhorses · 25/10/2026 10:06

Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Upton knows damn well. Upton sat through an entire court case on this.

Upton stated in court his intent to do this to women who had requested a female hcp putting the onus (again) on the woman to have to experience a man arriving, and having to face complaining about it, and all that went with it in order to escape him. Which is why this poor woman's husband stayed with her in this case, because the power is on the side of the doctor and his surrounding colleagues and the trust had been destroyed that they would not abuse this power.

Upton is the recipient of a judgment explaining that he harassed the last woman he did this to.

Upton chose to put another woman in that position, ignoring her consent or any respect for her, for his own personal purposes.

Once might have been somewhat explainable, but to do this to another woman? (And how many has he done this to who have not felt able to raise a complaint in the press and bring it to public attention?)

Whether genuinely unable to process the needs of others in this way, or whether intentionally exploiting women patients, Upton clearly should not be in patient-facing roles.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 10:18

@Wishesandhorses Whether genuinely unable to process the needs of others in this way, or whether intentionally exploiting women patients, Upton clearly should not be in patient-facing roles.

Agreed. I imagine a career as a medical insurance underwriter, or somesuch, would be much more suitable.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/10/2026 10:19

Wishesandhorses · 25/10/2026 10:06

Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Upton knows damn well. Upton sat through an entire court case on this.

Upton stated in court his intent to do this to women who had requested a female hcp putting the onus (again) on the woman to have to experience a man arriving, and having to face complaining about it, and all that went with it in order to escape him. Which is why this poor woman's husband stayed with her in this case, because the power is on the side of the doctor and his surrounding colleagues and the trust had been destroyed that they would not abuse this power.

Upton is the recipient of a judgment explaining that he harassed the last woman he did this to.

Upton chose to put another woman in that position, ignoring her consent or any respect for her, for his own personal purposes.

Once might have been somewhat explainable, but to do this to another woman? (And how many has he done this to who have not felt able to raise a complaint in the press and bring it to public attention?)

Whether genuinely unable to process the needs of others in this way, or whether intentionally exploiting women patients, Upton clearly should not be in patient-facing roles.

Edited

Wasn't there evidence that another woman had previously complained about him?
Suggesting this is a feature not a bug?

KeepupKardigans · 25/10/2026 10:21

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 10:18

@Wishesandhorses Whether genuinely unable to process the needs of others in this way, or whether intentionally exploiting women patients, Upton clearly should not be in patient-facing roles.

Agreed. I imagine a career as a medical insurance underwriter, or somesuch, would be much more suitable.

Pathology, for a greater understanding of the human body, male and female.

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 10:23

Wishesandhorses · 25/10/2026 10:06

Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Upton knows damn well. Upton sat through an entire court case on this.

Upton stated in court his intent to do this to women who had requested a female hcp putting the onus (again) on the woman to have to experience a man arriving, and having to face complaining about it, and all that went with it in order to escape him. Which is why this poor woman's husband stayed with her in this case, because the power is on the side of the doctor and his surrounding colleagues and the trust had been destroyed that they would not abuse this power.

Upton is the recipient of a judgment explaining that he harassed the last woman he did this to.

Upton chose to put another woman in that position, ignoring her consent or any respect for her, for his own personal purposes.

Once might have been somewhat explainable, but to do this to another woman? (And how many has he done this to who have not felt able to raise a complaint in the press and bring it to public attention?)

Whether genuinely unable to process the needs of others in this way, or whether intentionally exploiting women patients, Upton clearly should not be in patient-facing roles.

Edited

It also adds the element of doubt. Woman sees a Dr she reads as male but thinks 'well I asked for a female Dr so this must be a woman, I must be wrong so I can't say anything'.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 10:24

GriseldaandMike · 25/10/2026 10:23

It also adds the element of doubt. Woman sees a Dr she reads as male but thinks 'well I asked for a female Dr so this must be a woman, I must be wrong so I can't say anything'.

Exactly. Gaslighting a vulnerable, female patient already stressed about their medical condition. Who the fuck does that?

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