Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #68

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

Thread 67: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584523-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-67 1 October 2026 to ????

I am a bloke, who is also interested in cars. Decades ago, I was into the kit car scene, where people made some quite convincing copies of supercars, by adding body kits to quite ordinary cars. One of the favourite ones of the time, was adding a body kit to a Toyota MR2, to make it look like a Ferrari F355. When you look closely, you can see that it is a Toyota, it can never be a Ferrari. The same applies to a transwoman, no matter what they do, no matter what surgery they have, they will never be a woman, they will never smell like a woman, they will never feel like a woman and they will never behave like a woman.

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I don’t know how a definition can leak. Maybe the philosophers should call a plumber?

Or is it a leak as in they were trying to keep it secret, but the News of the World hacked their voicemails?

Newborns don’t make gametes; neither do post-menopausal women, nor many infertile women, nor women who’ve had hysterectomies

Crikey. That was a pretty basic misunderstanding.

“ NC When I talk about sex I'm talking about bodies that make eggs and sperm
DU I dont agree w you and may use my own language “

Patient: when I talk about angina I mean pain in my chest
Doctor: I don't agree with you and may use my own language

I leak occasionally - usually when I've had too much tea and have got distracted. After birthing two children my bladder is not what it once was. Biological reality is a kicker sometimes.

Humans have two legs, except some people have one or none and some people such as Myrtle Corbin have 4.
But that doesn't mean we don't understand what is meant by humans have two legs or that people couldn't tell the difference between Myrtle and a cat.

Female mammals are the ones with the type of body that is formed to produce large gametes, male mammals have bodies of the type that is formed to produce small mobile gametes.

Sometimes bodies don't form correcttly but they are all formed along one pathway or the other. No body has egg producing testicles or a vagina that shoots out sperm.

@Lacksie you have been asked many times what you actually believe regarding sex and trans etc. Word salad after word salad and nonsensical statements leave us still unsure. You are allowed and opinion but when those opinions make no sense people will question you.

I have asked many times and will do so again. What is your opinion on Sam Hall unlawfully prescribing PBs and hormones to children?

I will ask a second question. Do you think Roxy Tickle is a woman or a man?

Males do not have vaginas.

My daughter’s sex was determined via chromosome testing at 14 weeks gestation. She’s 41 now. You’re talking shite again,

Given we have actual news today, courtesy of the Scottish Information Commissioner (one of the few people in this whole sorry saga who appears to be doing his job properly), shall we give the pigeon chess a rest? It'll save @nauticant having to create yet another new thread already.

Who knows. It was bolded, so I figured it was important. It am assuming something else should have been added or whatever, as I find my own posts will have errors where my cut and paste did not work or I couldn’t see my screen properly. But I hope to find out.

The classic argument of trans rights activists is that there is no single thing that distinguishes all men from all women, therefore sex is a spectrum. This is an example of the univariate fallacy.

In simple terms, the univariate fallacy argues that, if there is no single, absolute, 100% defining trait that separates two categories, those categories do not exist or are identical. However, complex categories such as male and female are defined by multiple interacting features rather than a single isolated metric.

There is no single feature that separates all cats from all monkeys. Does that mean there is a cat/monkey spectrum? Of course not. We can clearly determine whether any particular organism is a cat or a monkey. In the same way, whilst the definition is more complex for some individuals, we can clearly define whether any particular human is male or female and that definition is biological - nothing to do with how they feel.

In most cases, whether someone is male or female can be determined simply by looking at their genitals. There are some individuals where that is not true, predominantly those with specific intersex conditions. However, it is still possible to determine whether they are biologically male or female. Everyone is one or the other.

Newborns don’t make gametes; neither do post-menopausal women, nor many infertile women, nor women who’ve had hysterectomies

Christ on a bike, this is a level of wrong I wasn't expecting. Ova are made during the development in the womb. The ovum that became my daughter grew in me while I was in my mother's womb.

A vagina isn't an internal cul de sack for shagging. A transwoman can never have a vagina, not cervix, nor any of the reproductive organs of female humans because they are male.

Whatever secondary sex characteristics may develop as a result of opposite sex hormones, no one changes sex.

Dr Upton is a liar and a fantasist. And a danger to women through his refusal to respect their boundaries.

Humans have two kidneys but due to a rare genetic mutation that is actually not related to kidneys, I was born with one kidney. Does this make me less human? No, it means I have one kidney - a very good one as it happens because it does the job of two (just like a woman doing the job of two men really).

Mutations happen. Sometimes rare mutations happen in sexual development .

And the female bodies with large gametes isn't restricted to human. We see it in every species we cam classify by sex.

The fact the the human body can function just dandy on one kidney but we have evolved to have two shows that even evolution can grasp that sometimes things go wrong with bodies. I'm not sure why TRAs struggle so much with the idea.

Yes, agreed. Soz.

A friend of mine was born with four kidneys, he did not discover until his 40's. It is amazing how much can go astray during development.

Then there is the horseshoe kidney found in 1:500 people with 2:1 male:female.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_kidney

I'm breaking my self-imposed resolution not to reply to your tedious gaslighting, but I can't let this slip by.

Newborns don’t make gametes; neither do post-menopausal women, nor many infertile women, nor women who’ve had hysterectomies.

Your ignorance of female anatomy is breathtaking. It's an established scientific fact that females are born with all their eggs already made in the womb! The vast majority of those eggs will stay in the ovaries for the rest of their lives, only a fraction ever maturing and being released monthly during their fertile years. Only a tiny minority of women are born without ovaries at all and most female infertility has other causes. As for hysterectomies, I had to have one at 42 and the surgeon left my ovaries so that I wouldn't go into sudden, total menopause. This is normal and only in a minority of cases would the ovaries be removed for specific reasons.

I've lost count of the times I've been told to go and educate myself. Now I suggest you do the same before you comment on such things again.

I find out the most fascinating things on these threads!

I didn't realise, that at the fetal stage, the unborn girl will have 7 to 8 million eggs, which then gradually reduces to 1 to 2 million eggs at birth.

Well, quite.

Upton is perfectly aware of the difference between men and women or else he couldn’t possibly know he’s “trans”.

Its another one of the enormous inconsistencies at the heart of trans ideology. Being trans is the thing you are but also the the thing you aren’t because you were always really the other sex.

As is pointed out, the only qualification to be “trans wona” is to be male. Even Lacksie gets this.

That's a better way of saying it, I've got the Maybelline ear worm instead. Maybe she's born with eggs it, maybe it's biology Maybelline

We have known for over 3000 years, since Greek writers and Hebrew writers (among others, those are just the ones I'm most aware of) that a man, the type that provides sperm, and a woman, the type that provides eggs and gestates and gives birth and feeds, are needed for reproduction. We all know the differences between women and men. A few examples where it's more difficult to tell don't invalidate the definition, but of course those whose whole identity depends on this being complicated try to pull down any definition by saying that this or that exception invalidates it completely. So we have to explain how the definition actually works.

None of this nitpicking makes a man a woman or a woman a man. Most trans people, from a point in puberty, are absolutely clearly male (sperm producers, such as Dr Upton) or female (egg producers, such as Isla Bumba, Esther Davidson, Kate Searle, Sandie Peggie). We don't need to check that they actually produce, or even have the capacity to produce, gametes to be sure which they are, because it is nearly always obvious.

I hope that was polite enough. I'm only human, and I get frustrated when people play dumb or nitpick in order to 'win' an argument.

My pet cat knows the difference between a female human and a male one - for crying out loud.