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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #68

850 replies

nauticant · 04/10/2026 13:02

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

Thread 67: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584523-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-67 1 October 2026 to ????

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32
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 00:41

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 00:00

He said, under oath, that he would treat women who had requested a female doctor. He took his wrongdoing with him to Oz.

Exactly. I watched the fucker say it live.

ProudWomanXX · 25/10/2026 03:02

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 00:41

Exactly. I watched the fucker say it live.

Same, here.

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 03:35

Hedgehogforshort · 25/10/2026 00:25

well if i did not know before, i now know what sex you are.

If i needed medical help regarding an intimate problem, i would not what a male doctor, which is my right.

i most certainly would not want a male doctor pretending to be a female, that would really freak me out.

And actually i would not want a doctor who believed themselves to be the opposite sex attending to me at all.

and i do not have to justify that either.

And? So she requests a different doctor, fine.

Nowhere in the article does it say that wasn't respected?. It just says her husband stayed because she was afraid.

So basically she went to A&E, met a trans doctor, then her and her husband became outraged and afraid.

What is DU supposed to have done wrong?

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 03:43

HenriettaSwanLeavitt2 · 25/10/2026 00:00

He said, under oath, that he would treat women who had requested a female doctor. He took his wrongdoing with him to Oz.

This is what Upton actually said when questioned under oath, according to the contemporaneous reporting by Tribunal Tweets.

Cunningham: What if a woman asks to see a female doctor?

Upton: I don’t see that I have to give personal information to patients. I have no obligation to do that.

Later, Cunningham presented the hypothetical case of a woman in A&E with unexplained heavy bleeding who had requested a female doctor.

Upton: If she wanted me to leave, I would and get someone else.

Cunningham then asked whether it was up to the patient to say she was uncomfortable with Upton.

Upton: That’s how it works.

Upton went on to explain that one could not assume a patient would reject a trans woman, and emphasised the importance of consent and making patients comfortable.

From Upton’s perspective.
Upton understands herself to be a woman. She doesn’t regard a request for a female doctor as necessarily excluding her, because she doesn’t assume that every patient requesting a woman means a cisgender woman.

Nor does she believe that being transgender creates an automatic obligation to disclose her personal medical history to patients.

However, she explicitly recognises that patients can refuse treatment from an individual doctor, that their wishes should be respected, and that another clinician should be found if they are uncomfortable.

In other words, Upton’s position is entirely consistent with her understanding of herself as a woman, while also recognising patients’ right to refuse treatment. Nothing in this exchange establishes that she has disregarded a patient’s wishes, still less that she has committed any wrongdoing.

Also this is all old news from the tribunal and doesn't establish she has done anything wrong at all in Australia.

CorvusPurpureus · 25/10/2026 04:02

What if I ‘understand myself’ to be a doctor?

I am not. The closest I could claim is a grade B Biology O Level from the mid 80s.

Because I am not a doctor, I shouldn’t be allowed to treat people who have asked to see a doctor.

Even if I genuinely ‘understand myself’ to be a doctor. Even if I’ve bought my own white coat & stethoscope.

Right?

Dr Upton is not a woman. Not biologically, not legally, not in any way whatsoever.

So if someone asks to see a doctor who is a woman, he’s not suited to see them. Any more than totally unqualified I am - yes, obviously, he’d probably deal with their A&E needs much better than I would, but what we are talking about here is CONSENT.

You don’t understand that, apparently, Lacksie. It’s not clear if Dr Upton now understands it, but certainly his words in court suggest he didn’t last year.

So the patient had every reason to be concerned.

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 04:15

CorvusPurpureus · 25/10/2026 04:02

What if I ‘understand myself’ to be a doctor?

I am not. The closest I could claim is a grade B Biology O Level from the mid 80s.

Because I am not a doctor, I shouldn’t be allowed to treat people who have asked to see a doctor.

Even if I genuinely ‘understand myself’ to be a doctor. Even if I’ve bought my own white coat & stethoscope.

Right?

Dr Upton is not a woman. Not biologically, not legally, not in any way whatsoever.

So if someone asks to see a doctor who is a woman, he’s not suited to see them. Any more than totally unqualified I am - yes, obviously, he’d probably deal with their A&E needs much better than I would, but what we are talking about here is CONSENT.

You don’t understand that, apparently, Lacksie. It’s not clear if Dr Upton now understands it, but certainly his words in court suggest he didn’t last year.

So the patient had every reason to be concerned.

Dr Upton is not a woman. Not biologically, not legally, not in any way whatsoever

I understand that this is your view. Others see things differently, taking a more nuanced approach to sex and gender (which, incidentally, better reflects the complexities of the law). The reality is that there are different perspectives on this.

The woman in Aus may well have been concerned. That doesn't establish DU did anything wrong. There is no suggestion DU failed to respect her wishes .

CorvusPurpureus · 25/10/2026 04:38

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 04:15

Dr Upton is not a woman. Not biologically, not legally, not in any way whatsoever

I understand that this is your view. Others see things differently, taking a more nuanced approach to sex and gender (which, incidentally, better reflects the complexities of the law). The reality is that there are different perspectives on this.

The woman in Aus may well have been concerned. That doesn't establish DU did anything wrong. There is no suggestion DU failed to respect her wishes .

No, he may not have ‘done’ anything.

He may have been a perfect gentleman, have gone nowhere near her, & have changed his thinking sufficiently that if he’d been directed to treat her, knowing she had requested a ‘woman doctor’, if he would have respectfully declined & suggested a female colleague be found.

But that’s not suggested by his fairly recent statement under oath, is it?

There is no ‘nuance’ regarding the fact that Upton is a biological male.

The fact that the Australian government have temporarily lost their minds DOES however mean that Australian women have every reason to be frightened that they will be assaulted in hospital by a man masquerading as a ‘female doctor’.

I’m very glad she had her husband there to advocate for her. Very many women do not.

StealthTroublemaker · 25/10/2026 06:05

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 04:15

Dr Upton is not a woman. Not biologically, not legally, not in any way whatsoever

I understand that this is your view. Others see things differently, taking a more nuanced approach to sex and gender (which, incidentally, better reflects the complexities of the law). The reality is that there are different perspectives on this.

The woman in Aus may well have been concerned. That doesn't establish DU did anything wrong. There is no suggestion DU failed to respect her wishes .

So go on then, explain in what way DU is a woman. What does DU have in common with a female that makes them both women. If you say feelings, you must be able to relate that feeling to any female, so à feeling that every female has. If not, he’s just a male acting out his idea of what a woman is so not a woman, but a deluded man.
if you say it’s an inner sense, again, you must be able to show all females have this inner sense.

off you go, time starts now….

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 06:31

@Lacksie we know you will use verbal gymnastics the word nuance about gender and the complexities of the law to make us see we are not ‘up with the times’. Speaking of ‘The Times’ you might want to read the article by Hannah Barnes in the Times. This relates to the Sarah Redvers tribunal.

What are your thoughts on the news that a tribunal heard first hand that children were being handed out PBs and cross sex hormones illegally. Any advice on nuance around gender there you think we need to be schooled on or can you see a massive medical scandal on the horizon as we do?

Maybe can you explain away the toxicity within the NHS exposed in the tribunal? Or is their nuance there too at shutting up a decent safeguarding lead to pander to a woman larping as a man. Sam Hall. Ready for you to school me.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5591526-redvers-v-nhs-sussex-integrated-care-board-mr-adam-doyle-thread-3?reply=155477150

NowSober · 25/10/2026 07:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2026 00:41

Exactly. I watched the fucker say it live.

Me too. It was said in a fake laydee voice as well. It was laughable.

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 07:55

StealthTroublemaker · 25/10/2026 06:05

So go on then, explain in what way DU is a woman. What does DU have in common with a female that makes them both women. If you say feelings, you must be able to relate that feeling to any female, so à feeling that every female has. If not, he’s just a male acting out his idea of what a woman is so not a woman, but a deluded man.
if you say it’s an inner sense, again, you must be able to show all females have this inner sense.

off you go, time starts now….

If you say feelings, you must be able to relate that feeling to any female, so à feeling that every female has

Really?

After an entire thread in which it’s been explained / demonstrated repeatedly and in detail why this conclusion- (must be able to relate that to a feeling every female has) -

does not logically follow from the premise (that someone experiences a feeling of being female),

you’re still just repeating it as a logical necessity?

There is no point to the conversation at all.

NowSober · 25/10/2026 07:55

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 03:35

And? So she requests a different doctor, fine.

Nowhere in the article does it say that wasn't respected?. It just says her husband stayed because she was afraid.

So basically she went to A&E, met a trans doctor, then her and her husband became outraged and afraid.

What is DU supposed to have done wrong?

Edited

What is DU supposed to have done wrong?

Pretended that he is a woman when he is a man? Parading in public in womanface. Being an insufferable prick? Plenty more to choose from.

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 07:57

NowSober · 25/10/2026 07:55

What is DU supposed to have done wrong?

Pretended that he is a woman when he is a man? Parading in public in womanface. Being an insufferable prick? Plenty more to choose from.

In other words simply being a trans woman and in public in is her crime?

NowSober · 25/10/2026 08:02

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 07:57

In other words simply being a trans woman and in public in is her crime?

Edited

Wrong place at the wrong time. A man so deluded that he thinks he is a woman has no business practising as a doctor or nurse or any other variety of HCP. Uptonogood would be more suited to other career opportunities available to the gender deluded that do not involve a knowledge of biology.

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:06

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 07:57

In other words simply being a trans woman and in public in is her crime?

Edited

Impersonating a police officer is a crime. Sadly as women we are not afforded the same dignity when a man impersonates us we are meant to suck it up.

What is your view on the unfolding scandal around children having been given inappropriate care by Sam Hall - a woman larping as a man. @Lacksie if you condone this you are defending the indefensible.

I presume you have an angle on the Sarah Redvers case?

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:06

NowSober · 25/10/2026 08:02

Wrong place at the wrong time. A man so deluded that he thinks he is a woman has no business practising as a doctor or nurse or any other variety of HCP. Uptonogood would be more suited to other career opportunities available to the gender deluded that do not involve a knowledge of biology.

So trans people should be restricted as to what jobs they are allowed to have now? Is that next on the list after excluding them from public toilets etc?

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:08

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:06

So trans people should be restricted as to what jobs they are allowed to have now? Is that next on the list after excluding them from public toilets etc?

If integrity and honesty are the core principles of a role then yes exclusion is appropriate @Lacksie or they should consider self regulation as their values are dishonest. Pretending to be the opposite sex is deception.

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:09

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:08

If integrity and honesty are the core principles of a role then yes exclusion is appropriate @Lacksie or they should consider self regulation as their values are dishonest. Pretending to be the opposite sex is deception.

😮

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:10

I'm book marking all these for the next time a pp insists there is no transphobia on these boards and demands evidence.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 25/10/2026 08:17

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:06

So trans people should be restricted as to what jobs they are allowed to have now? Is that next on the list after excluding them from public toilets etc?

They aren't excluded from public toilets

Unclear what your "etc" is

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:19

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:10

I'm book marking all these for the next time a pp insists there is no transphobia on these boards and demands evidence.

A phobia is a fear of something. I am not fearful of trans however I am tired pretending that men can be women and women can be men.

Be gender non conforming if you cannot just live in your own skin but do not expect everyone to waffle along with the language and pro nouns. It is an over valued belief you are special that has juggernauted itself under the ‘be kind’ mantra.

Believing in reality is a much healthier place to live than believing all this born in the wrong body nonsense and going on to mutilate yourself.

Any thoughts the children impacted by Sam Hall’s interventions? Potential medical scandal covered up by the NHS CEO? Or is it all nuanced?

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:24

GreyskySexRealistsky · 25/10/2026 08:17

They aren't excluded from public toilets

Unclear what your "etc" is

Right. And I suppose when @BlueLegume 's policies about employment come in , you'll declare those aren't forms of exclusion either.

NowSober · 25/10/2026 08:26

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:06

So trans people should be restricted as to what jobs they are allowed to have now? Is that next on the list after excluding them from public toilets etc?

Yes. They have chosen to be "trans". If they want to present as the sex they are not they should realise that this restricts their employment choices.

BlueLegume · 25/10/2026 08:27

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:24

Right. And I suppose when @BlueLegume 's policies about employment come in , you'll declare those aren't forms of exclusion either.

No policies were mentioned @lacksie. You chose that word. I am retired. I retired partly due to the lies being told to children and young people around gender identity. My role was to treat children and young people with respect whilst upholding the values of the organisation I worked in. Those values included honesty and integrity. Lying to said young people went against company values.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 25/10/2026 08:28

Lacksie · 25/10/2026 08:24

Right. And I suppose when @BlueLegume 's policies about employment come in , you'll declare those aren't forms of exclusion either.

I was correcting your misunderstanding about toilets

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