terrifying, dangerous, abusive "advice" on r/transgenderuk

[mardirousse]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1vo4oqz/hypothetical_situation/.

Dad wants to prevent his effeminate 15 year old boy from developing an adam's apple or deep voice, so "hypothetically" asks if he could back and forth to France for puberty blockers.

gets loads of "support", told he's a wonderful father, advised to put the lad on diy estrogen instead as it's more appropriate "at that age" (15!).

Surely platforms can't allow this, legally! it's so dangerous. I'm really upset. His poor little lad.

Specifically, the author discusses the numbers lost to follow up (approx 60%) even in some short term studies. This makes claims of a vanishingly low regret rate impossible to substantiate.

I consider the blocking of research to establish regret rates to be the second worst piece of villainy of the trans activists, the first being advocacy for the use of puberty blockers.

What a ridiculous question. No one claims that puberty blockers changes anyone's sex.

What the poster is referring to is the increasingly common tendancy by some to post pictures of people at Pride who have some indication of disability, such as a walking stick, and wonder aloud about why 'so many' seem to have.

Usually it's been presented as some sort of implication that they are 'making it up' to appear cool. This is the first time I've seen anyone claim that they were all on puberty blockers and that is why they have some disability.

It's nonsense, of course. The poster has zero knowledge of any of these people's medical history. They have made multiple groundless associations - first that the people in the pictures are or were gender dysphoric; second, that they sought and received treatment; third, that that treatment was in the form of puberty blockers; and fourth, that those puberty blockers caused these assorted disabilities.

In other words, it is all made up.

Not because there aren't examples of disabled people at pride, but because the poster has made up the reason why those people are disabled.

The 'opposite evidence' can't exist.

Because just as you cannot know a person's medical history just by looking at a picture of them, neither can I or anyone else.

The only difference is that you are the one claiming that you can and do know their medical history. I'm not brazen enough to come out with such nonsense.

Also known as conversion therapy.

Of course trans kids should have access to talking therapy. But if gender dysphoria persists into early stages of puberty, by 10-13, then no - using talking therapy to either convert them to being non-trans, or more benignly using talking therapy in place of medical treatment that can avoid significant distress is not always going to be the 'safer' option.

Yes. Adults who have previously been on puberty blockers are adults and there is zero evidence to support your implication that they lack capacity to consent to medical treatment.

The question isn’t as ridiculous as it appears.
We’ve had many TIM on this forum before and they have insisted that by taking PB’s and then onto X-sex hormones, they have gone through a female puberty.

Were they wrong?

That's not true, though.

There is nothing about puberty blockers that inevitably leads to further transition.

You are conflating causation and correlation - saying that because very high number of kids on puberty blockers go on to CSH, that path is caused by the puberty blockers. But you have no evidence for that.

The far more plausible explanation is that the figures related to Tavistock, where a very very small percentage of children were prescribed puberty blockers in the first place, and only after very lengthy waiting periods.

So puberty blockers prescribed to kids with the most extreme gender dysphoria, and whose dysphoria persisted for the many years they were on waiting lists. In other words, precisely the characteristics that point to gender dysphoria continuing into adulthood.

Key things that happen in puberty includes;

• Bone development: Puberty is a major period for building bone mass. A large proportion of adult bone density is established during adolescence, which affects the risk of osteoporosis and fractures later in life.
• Muscle and physical development: Sex hormones contribute to muscle, strength and changes in body composition.
• Reproductive development: The reproductive system matures and fertility becomes possible.
• Brain development: Puberty hormones interact with the developing brain and contribute to changes in emotional regulation, behaviour and cognition.
• Cardiovascular and metabolic development: Puberty helps establish adult patterns of body fat, blood pressure and metabolism.
• Growth: The pubertal growth spurt and eventual closure of the growth plates are hormonally regulated.

I do find it weird that people think they can just block puberty and it’s not detrimental. I know nothing about the Pride videos or images discussed and whether that could indicate that puberty blockers are causing health problems, are the kids this has been done to even old enough for any negative effects to be showing? This madness was pretty recent wasn’t it? Common sense tells us this is very bad for the body long term though.

I use HRT and am in my fifties and my body has completely seized up, I wouldn’t actively wish this on anyone.

The post you were referring to was solely about puberty blockers. No one claims that puberty blockers changes anyone's sex. So the premise of the question is entirely ridiculous.

I didn’t say it was ‘caused’ by them. I’m describing the situation as it is.

That’s reassuring. Perhaps the people saying they’ve changed their sex through X-sex hormonal treatments can also be re-educated. Many actually believe they have changed their biological sex.

There are so many examples.

The problem with that study is that it does not address causation and doesn't actually provide a useful comparator.

It shows that those with GD who have had surgery have worse mental health than those with GD who have not had surgery.

That is not the same thing as saying that the decision to have surgery worsens mental health. Because what the study doesn't do is compare patients' mental health before and after surgery.

It is logical that those undergoing surgery are more likely to have mental health problems precisely because it is likely to be those with the most extreme dysphoria - which can in turn result in more extreme mental health conditions - that pursue surgery in the first place.

Have you been asleep for five years? Counselling is now called conversion therapy. The rest of your script is a pretty accurate argument of everything that has been debunked time and time again.

You said that puberty blockers are 'the first step on an inevitable journey toward more and more medical intervention'.

There is nothing about puberty blockers that renders that journey inevitable.

If what you mean is that puberty blockers are used in patients who have a very high likelihood of having gender dysphoria and a trans identity that persists into adulthood, then fine. I agree with that. But that's not what you said.

Are you're saying that a child under 10 who has problems accepting their biological sex can be classed as

[a] being trans, as suggested by ' convert them to being non-trans'
and
[b] is experiencing persistent gender dysphoria.
which
[c] justifies medical treatment.

This is a very young age to say that talking therapy has failed, that a child is definitely trans, has 'persistent' gender dysphoria, and that it is therefore now ethical to treat them medically.

In my case, it was the onset of puberty that 'cured' my gender dysphoria - having felt suicidal about it before it happened, when it happened it re-enforced to me that I was in fact biologically female, that I always would be, and no amount of wishing things were otherwise would do me any good.

Having no choice but to deal with it was distressing for a time, but frankly the reality of several decades of monthly periods stretching ahead of you is pretty distressing for a lot of girls, not just the gender dysphoric ones like me.

Sometimes in life there is no way out but through - reality exists, it's not always easy, sometimes it is challenging, and it is not doing children any favours to pretend otherwise.

If they are distressed, as I was, that puberty will confirm them in the biological sex and the sexed body they feel alienated from, it is not a benign solution to suggest that they can ward off biological reality.
They can do it temporarily, with puberty blockers, but then what?
On or off puberty blockers, they will always the same sex they were born into.

If they are lucky enough to have support around them that is gender critical, i.e. critical of gender stereotypes, they can grow up to be whatever kind of man, or whatever kind of woman they damn well want, without any damaging negativity about their bodies being wrong, or needing hormones, or reassignment surgery.

The Cass report concluded there's no reliable way of determining which children will persist to adulthood.

What we do know is 98% of children on puberty blockers go onto cross sex hormones.

Blocking puberty arrests their development. It arrests everything. At the end of two years, three years, they have exactly the same maturity they had at the beginning.

I can't help thinking of the parallels between the puberty blockers>cross sex hormones>gender surgery pathway and the death penalty.

We got rid of the latter because we were not confident we would never, 100% certainty, ever get it wrong. And that was in judging culpability for an event that had already happened, with barristers arguing both sides.

I find it very odd that TRAs seem to be more confident that they can predict the future path of a child than the entire political and legal establishment was that it can correctly assess culpability for a crime.

Let's see what I said.

Trans activists have given up the pretence that puberty blockers are any kind of pause button to see how it goes, and are rather the first step on an inevitable journey toward more and more medical intervention.

This was how they were 'sold'. As an opportunity for a young person to take stock, to consider their identity and to decide if they 'needed' to medically transition.

To quote Amnesty & Liberty at the time of the Bell judgement.

"For many young trans people, or those questioning and exploring their gender identity, puberty blockers allow more time to make important decisions."

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/knowledge-hub/all-resources/amnesty-international-uk-and-liberty-joint-statement-puberty-blockers/

It seems though that all trans activists haven't given up the pretence. Mermaids still actually advise families that these are more of a pause.

"Blockers simply give time for them to reflect; they can stop at any point and a puberty typically associated with the gender they were assigned at birth will resume."

https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/families/

Your argument is "ah, but the reason almost all children on puberty blockers go on to hormones is we are just so damn good at identifying those people who are not only truly trans, but are also among the 'some' who would benefit from medical transition" You are claiming a crystal ball.

As others have said, for many young people, it is the very process of going through puberty that alleviates their dysphoria. You have no way of knowing which they are, but are happy to deny them that chance.

I think you’re trying to count the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin.

These studies shared on this thread cast doubt on the claims that GAC benefits those that receive it and that the regret rate is lower than for other medical procedures.

I posted on another thread that I was reminded of the judgment of Solomon where two women claimed to be the mother of an infant. Solomon suggested cutting the child in half and one woman agreed. He judged that the other mother )who was horrified by the idea and preferred to give up claims to the child than see it harmed) was the true mother.

As a parent, reading these studies I have a strong urge to protect children from harm. There is so much doubt about the potential benefits (particularly when compared with historical desistence rates) and the risks so immense that it seems not worth risking. Particularly since the cohort already suffers from other comorbidities which suggests GAC will not help their mental health.

I acknowledge that we have no studies that answer all the questions flawlessly (although some are better than others). On the basis of “first do no harm” I don’t think child medicalisation can be justified

Are you saying humans can't change sex? What is the point of puberty blockers then, given they are part of the "transition" process? I hope it's explained to these little kids that they're still going to be boys if they are male and will never be female, or that they will always be female if they are girls and will never become boys.

I hope it's explained to these little kids that they're still going to be boys if they are male and will never be female, or that they will always be female if they are girls and will never become boys.

Quite. They will not have developed, not have matured. The bodies and mindset of children. All those children on cross sex hormones, which is the vast majority of those on puberty blockers, will retain the genitals of prepubescent children.

It's horrifying. Adults legally, children anatomically.

Why would anyone advocate for this.

Why do adults need puberty blockers, when, by the fact of being adults, they have already been through puberty 🧐

They're now telling a 13 year old to DIY hormone therapy.

I mean, there's something decidedly shady about grown adults interacting with children on Reddit anyway, but this takes it to a whole new level.

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/s/3h1uW8MmT6