terrifying, dangerous, abusive "advice" on r/transgenderuk

[mardirousse]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1vo4oqz/hypothetical_situation/.

Dad wants to prevent his effeminate 15 year old boy from developing an adam's apple or deep voice, so "hypothetically" asks if he could back and forth to France for puberty blockers.

gets loads of "support", told he's a wonderful father, advised to put the lad on diy estrogen instead as it's more appropriate "at that age" (15!).

Surely platforms can't allow this, legally! it's so dangerous. I'm really upset. His poor little lad.

No need thank you Igneococcus, the article in question has already been translated into English - there's a link to the English version in the SEGM reference:

Gender Identity Disorders Among Young People in Germany: Prevalence and Trends, 2013–2022 (31.05.2024)

Can you present some established evidence that shows that puberty blockers do work and they do in fact change the sex of the child taking them?

No, nobody is pretending, they don't exist in numbers as you say they do. Show me the statistics of young people on mobility benefits because of puberty blocker use?

Heck, show me the pictures of these Pride matches with all these young people in wheelchairs and on crutches due to puberty blockers. I've never seen a Pride picture with a single one in.

When you say 'work' what do you mean?

They definitely work, thats the point.

It is the word 'help' that is the issue. they are used to 'help' adult males not develop the characteristics that stop them from passing.

They were all over the internet a few weeks ago.

Why do we all have to go round all the interweb world to show you things that you could just see yourself if you cared enough to look?

You are speaking from the experience of someone who is well and truly embedded within the framework of transgender Ideology - so much so that you cannot see beyond it; and even viewing( and imposing upon) your child through that lens too
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This ideology is nothing but a framing device, along with a complete vocabulary and set of terminology - which is only, however, one of the most recent in a long line of such devices, used throughout history, to understand the human condition.

This is not the same thing as truth. The truth is that no-one is the opposite sex to that which they are; and everyone is either one sex or the other. How you imagine yourself is your own private business - but you cannot expect others to accept it unquestioningly. The world is not all about you. It does not revolve around your self definition.

The thread moved on from discussion of whether there is significant regret of medicial transition in later life or whether the enormity of what has been done and can never be undone prevents the mind from exploring "what if".

I think it's worth noting though that many women who are victims of FGM grow up believing FGM is the right thing to do for girls and want it for their daughters in turn.

I hope no one believes this is because FGM actually is a right and proper way to treat women and girls (original sex based meaning of those words, obviously, and isn't it shameful that the supposed progressive TRAs want to leave us with no word to describe the female bodied half of humanity even in such heartbreakingly sex specific contexts as FGM?).

I hope everyone can see this is socialisation and sunk costs acting to normalise and perpetuate deeply sexist violence and mutilation.

Just because victims don't see themselves as such, it doesn't absolve the perpetrators of atrocities.

Everywhere where? In some kind of anti-trans echo chamber? I practically live on the internet. Even a current Google AI search isn't bringing up anything but two isolated international cases, only one with mobility impairment. Please point me to one bit of this "everywhere".

Please also bear in mind that BMD loss does not equal disability. I have very significant osteoporosis of the spine with scoliosis and I not only walk 4 miles unaided but I also jog and rarely even take pain killers.

“I practically live on the internet “

Therein lies the problem….

Yes, that anti trans echo chamber of Trans PRIDE videos.

Not at all. I am on no social media except this one. I am able to read every paper from every political viewpoint. I'm able to look up research. I subscribe widely outside my own experience so that I never get stuck in an echo chamber. The knowledge and news of the entire world is at my fingertips.

So can you point me to where I'm missing these hoards of children and young people in wheelchairs and on crutches due to having taken puberty blockers?

This is so true. You can refute claims, blatantly and obviously, until the person is painted into a tiny little corner, on tiptoe, and all they've got left is, well, I'm still right. And they'll use it. Because the process of reversing their thinking is too difficult. Certainly in public.

I have seen posters on here do it, though. I'm always rather admiring of it. It quite obviously takes a bit of courage.

It has not gone unnoticed that there is a large number of people who have medically transitioned as children or young adults who are suffering physically as a result and it has been recommended that research be done on this cohort through data collection in adult gender clinics to better understand this phenomenon before undertaking the Pathways trial.

The adult gender clinics won’t share the data.

The researchers of the Pathways trial are continuing anyway.

And my point still stands. Even if there was evidence of people on benefits and in the NHS suffering as a result, it wouldn’t impact the Pathways trial like you claim.

I think you are mistaking people who support Pride who have mobility issues making videos about attending Pride marches with mobility issues , of which there have been a few.

There is only one documented case that I can find in a quick search where osteoporosis due to puberty blocker use put a young person in a wheelchair. There is one other documented case of severe spinal osteoporosis with a big fracture risk, but that remained a risk not an actuality. That's internationally.

Point me to just one video showing young people at a Pride event unable to walk unaided due to puberty blocker use.

And my point still stands. Even if there was evidence of people on benefits and in the NHS suffering as a result, it wouldn’t impact the Pathways trial like you claim.

I think it would because Cass would have had to take that data into account if it existed and would have been unable to recommend the trial on ethical grounds.

If the adult clinics had data on the adults who had taken puberty blockers that said ANYTHING POSITIVE they would be shouting from the rooftops.

“The more nonsensical and obviously absurd a belief is, the more people who hold it (or pretend to) will resist recanting. The potential for humiliation rises in direct proportion to the ridiculousness of what they've publicly swallowed. They see no choice but to double down.”

"this very ungraceful distress, in which they can neither retract with dignity nor persist with justice"

Who said it better? JKR? Or Edmund Burke?
There's only one way to find out...

FIIIIIIGGGGGHHHHHT!😁
[FYI if you're baffled - that's a ref to an old TV programme]

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But she tried to get it. They wouldn’t give it to her. That's the whole point. Cass was concerned about these potential negative outcomes, asked the adult clinics for it, they refused, so went with the idea that became Pathways.

Pathways isn’t going ahead because the data on bad outcomes like osteoporosis doesn’t exist, it’s going ahead because the data on bad outcomes like osteoporosis wasn’t made available.

That's the point. She hasn't got it. If she had it and if it shows what we think it might, the trial would be unethical.

But why has no country in the world got it if puberty blockers really are putting young people in wheelchairs and on crutches? I find that difficult to understand. Surely there Finns would have that data?

There is no question that they reduce bone density. But hyperbole about wheelchair users at Pride marches just makes the gender critical side of this argument seem as rabid as the trans extremists, minus the violence. It doesn't help.

so you freely admit, in fact you say there’s no question that they reduce bone density! That’s more than some TRAs are willing to admit! And you have no problem
with this? Reduced bone density leads to greatly increased risk of fractures, osteoporosis, back pain, stooped posture. Are you ok with that? For cosmetic surgery?

Who said I had no problem with reduced bone density? You have completely made that up. I have said repeatedly that the puberty blocker trial is unethical.

My problem is only that hyperbole about children at Pride marches in wheelchairs and using walking aids due to puberty blockers actually make the gender critical argument which I fully support look as unhinged as the trans warriors, just with less violence.

It will not help win this argument to make ridiculous and easily disproven claims.

you’re gender critical but talk about anti trans echo chambers? We’ve had posters like this before, who
claim to be GC whilst posting wild TRA nonsense.

That's the point. She hasn't got it. If she had it and if it shows what we think it might, the trial would be unethical.

No, YOUR point is that the trial wouldn’t go ahead if this data existed and people knew about it.

The trial is going ahead regardless of whether it exists or not. Because if the data was that important, they would still try and get it. I repeat and clarify, the trial is not going ahead because the data doesn’t exist, it’s going ahead because the data is unavailable and they don’t care enough to pursue it before starting Pathways.

You can’t say “it can’t exist otherwise Pathways wouldn’t be going ahead” because that assumes that the potential existence of such data is a priority for the Pathways researchers as part of their protocol. It isn’t.

But why has no country in the world got it if puberty blockers really are putting young people in wheelchairs and on crutches? I find that difficult to understand. Surely there Finns would have that data?

Because most countries have done exactly zero long term research on physical outcomes, or had significant drop out rates. It is not disputed that bone health is negatively impacted. And it doesn’t matter if it’s hyperbole that they may be so severely impacted as to be on crutches or in wheelchairs because even if it was 100% demonstrable that this was happening in the UK, Pathways would be going ahead. Because if they thought it was important they would look first to see if it’s true. And they aren’t.

I do know that.

I also know that the decision to proceed to cross sex hormones is a decision taken by competent adults, rather than some inevitable consequence of puberty blockers.

Rather, I think the high rates suggest that the very small minority of kids who were prescribed puberty blockers by Tavistock were probably cases of such extreme and persistent dysphoria that their trans identity was always extremely likely to persist into adulthood.