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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)

185 replies

impossibletoday · 31/07/2026 20:33

Noticed on the commonwealth games website. All the athletics events I looked at showed both the world record and the games record......

except the women's 800m.

Guess who holds that record from 2016.

Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
MarieDeGournay · 03/08/2026 13:25

flowersinmyheart · 03/08/2026 12:21

Actually that photo is so misleading and Judged by western standards . Taken on a school trip in
Durban . Durban is an ( South African ) city. People of all level swim in the sea there . A lot of people don’t have swim suits of any sort and swim like this so please don’t be so judgmental.

If you are a 15-year-old girl and can't afford a swimsuit of any sort to go swimming with a mixed group of school pals, I think you'd wear shorts and a top of some kind, any kind, a t-shirt, a vest, anything, rather than swim naked from the waist up with them, wouldn't you, flowersinmyheart?

I'm also surprised that the teachers from Nthema Secondary School didn't notice that one of the senior girls was swimming topless with the boys, and intervene to say it was completely inappropriate, maybe even offer to lend her a top if she didn't have one.

Unless even the teachers knew that the pupil swimming naked from the waist up was not in fact a girl...

murasaki · 03/08/2026 13:32

He had a totally appropriate swimsuit.

Helleofabore · 03/08/2026 14:01

MarieDeGournay · 03/08/2026 13:25

If you are a 15-year-old girl and can't afford a swimsuit of any sort to go swimming with a mixed group of school pals, I think you'd wear shorts and a top of some kind, any kind, a t-shirt, a vest, anything, rather than swim naked from the waist up with them, wouldn't you, flowersinmyheart?

I'm also surprised that the teachers from Nthema Secondary School didn't notice that one of the senior girls was swimming topless with the boys, and intervene to say it was completely inappropriate, maybe even offer to lend her a top if she didn't have one.

Unless even the teachers knew that the pupil swimming naked from the waist up was not in fact a girl...

Agreed

Any female swimmer I know who cannot afford swimming togs wears shorts and a bra and a shirt.

The shirt being very important.

There seems to be some disconnect here in the attempt to dismiss the deliberate decision of a male athlete who knew he was male and didn’t give one skerrick of consideration to any female athlete he displaced and disadvantaged.

The fact he was described as acting with grace is farcical considering his attitude to towards the Olympians he displaced.

But … we must centre the men…

SodThisHeadache · 03/08/2026 14:26

@flowersinmyheart

Caster has a lot to say.

I suggest you read the rest of the thread because some of what you say is untrue and definitely designed to tug on the hearts strings to an extent that is not justified.

viques · 03/08/2026 14:45

viques · 03/08/2026 14:44

Oh sorry, hasn’t posted as it was from a Facebook page.

impossibletoday · 03/08/2026 14:48

Posted upstream

Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
OP posts:
murasaki · 03/08/2026 14:50

I did find implying he could afford a suitable swimsuit to be somewhat patronising. Given he clearly has one as a 15 year old boy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2026 14:52

he could apparently afford bottoms but not a top 🙄

Helleofabore · 03/08/2026 16:19

murasaki · 03/08/2026 14:50

I did find implying he could afford a suitable swimsuit to be somewhat patronising. Given he clearly has one as a 15 year old boy.

There are many inconsistent claims being made by posters who seem to think they have excuses as to why a male athlete should be supported to compete as a female athlete.

I think though, the issue lay fully as the responsibility of the OIC committee who approved the changes back in 1999 or whenever. They laid the ground for these inconsistent argument that effectively infantalised a group of male people who should have continued to be told that they were not female athletes despite what it said on any birth certificate that was issued in error.

What continues to be clear though is that few of these posters actually think through their pleas as to the impact on female athletes.

It is just a continuous cycle of excusing a male person’s choice. That is infantilisation in my mind.

Lins77 · 03/08/2026 17:34

Those do look like swim shorts he's wearing in the pic.

viques · 03/08/2026 22:18

impossibletoday · 03/08/2026 14:48

Posted upstream

Thankyou

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 05:31

I think the pattern we see of the arguments to support male athletes such as Semenya fall into :

Sex is complicated so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(No. For the purpose of playing sport, screening for conditions where a male a
body produces male levels of testosterone and processes it to virilise is not ‘complicated’ at all)

It is racist to exclude these male athletes so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(This is based on several aspects, one is an absurd ‘standards of beauty’ which is immediately redundant when it is realised that it is the accuser who is racist in declaring that male people should be set as any benchmark for female ‘beauty’, and looks have nothing to do with sporting performance. Also, more importantly though, those making such accusations forget the female athletes negatively impacted by the inclusion of this group of male athletes).

Then comes the calls to emotion.

These male athletes have had their entire life changed by the discovery they are not female so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(Every single day peoole across the world face similar discoveries, why does this male athlete group deserve special treatment when all the others have to face reality that they cannot compete in the sport category, or even the sport, they want to?)

These male people have suffered deprivation and hardship so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(This weak argument ignores the many female athletes with similar life experiences who are negatively impacted by the inclusion of this group. And more importantly, deprivation and hardship should not mean such extraordinary accommodations being made that cause female people to be so negatively impacted. Grants, bursaries etc yes. Inclusion in a protected category that they don’t belong in, no)

The sporting federation allowed it so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(Sure. But this also removes the agency for male athletes to acknowledge what was at one stage universally understood without need to seek fresh evidence - that this group of male athletes have advantages and they should respect female athlete’s needs)

Usually we also see such fallacies and falsehoods of :

’Only a few’

(The count of displaced and negative impacted female athletes can be huge for each and every single male athlete being included in competitive level sport. It is still meaningful when safety is considered at social level)

’But natural variation!’

(Protected sport categories allow for a wide range of allowable body variations within the protected characteristic. The expectation is for everyone person who has a combination of natural attributes that give performance benefits, others will have another combination that will
compete.)

’But sport is a human right!’

(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

They don’t always come first.

(This is irrelevant. The inclusion of this group means a mediocre male athlete, when compared to exceptional male athletes in the sport, still causes safety and loss of opportunity for female athletes. And those female athletes who win are even more exceptionally skilled because they win! )

This list is just some of the most common flawed arguments we see on these threads defending male athletes who have a body that produces male levels of testosterone that their body processes to virilise making considered, conscious and free choices to compete (or continue competing after finding out) in female sports categories.

The one thing they all have in common is that they never once centre the female athletes who are unfairly negatively impacted. These arguments always centre the male athlete.

In addition, we are also told we should be kind and use female language for male people who know they are male people and choose to disrespect female athletes’ needs. I would go so far as to say they are, intentionally or not, abusing female people. Why are we, as women, expected to use inaccurate language that is female language for male people when doing so perpetuates the harm to female people individually and collectively?

viques · 04/08/2026 07:40

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 05:31

I think the pattern we see of the arguments to support male athletes such as Semenya fall into :

Sex is complicated so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(No. For the purpose of playing sport, screening for conditions where a male a
body produces male levels of testosterone and processes it to virilise is not ‘complicated’ at all)

It is racist to exclude these male athletes so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(This is based on several aspects, one is an absurd ‘standards of beauty’ which is immediately redundant when it is realised that it is the accuser who is racist in declaring that male people should be set as any benchmark for female ‘beauty’, and looks have nothing to do with sporting performance. Also, more importantly though, those making such accusations forget the female athletes negatively impacted by the inclusion of this group of male athletes).

Then comes the calls to emotion.

These male athletes have had their entire life changed by the discovery they are not female so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(Every single day peoole across the world face similar discoveries, why does this male athlete group deserve special treatment when all the others have to face reality that they cannot compete in the sport category, or even the sport, they want to?)

These male people have suffered deprivation and hardship so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(This weak argument ignores the many female athletes with similar life experiences who are negatively impacted by the inclusion of this group. And more importantly, deprivation and hardship should not mean such extraordinary accommodations being made that cause female people to be so negatively impacted. Grants, bursaries etc yes. Inclusion in a protected category that they don’t belong in, no)

The sporting federation allowed it so therefore some male people with male pubertal physical advantage should compete as female people.

(Sure. But this also removes the agency for male athletes to acknowledge what was at one stage universally understood without need to seek fresh evidence - that this group of male athletes have advantages and they should respect female athlete’s needs)

Usually we also see such fallacies and falsehoods of :

’Only a few’

(The count of displaced and negative impacted female athletes can be huge for each and every single male athlete being included in competitive level sport. It is still meaningful when safety is considered at social level)

’But natural variation!’

(Protected sport categories allow for a wide range of allowable body variations within the protected characteristic. The expectation is for everyone person who has a combination of natural attributes that give performance benefits, others will have another combination that will
compete.)

’But sport is a human right!’

(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

They don’t always come first.

(This is irrelevant. The inclusion of this group means a mediocre male athlete, when compared to exceptional male athletes in the sport, still causes safety and loss of opportunity for female athletes. And those female athletes who win are even more exceptionally skilled because they win! )

This list is just some of the most common flawed arguments we see on these threads defending male athletes who have a body that produces male levels of testosterone that their body processes to virilise making considered, conscious and free choices to compete (or continue competing after finding out) in female sports categories.

The one thing they all have in common is that they never once centre the female athletes who are unfairly negatively impacted. These arguments always centre the male athlete.

In addition, we are also told we should be kind and use female language for male people who know they are male people and choose to disrespect female athletes’ needs. I would go so far as to say they are, intentionally or not, abusing female people. Why are we, as women, expected to use inaccurate language that is female language for male people when doing so perpetuates the harm to female people individually and collectively?

Edited

We are going to need a bigger T shirt to get all those points on!

SwirlyGates · 04/08/2026 10:39

’But sport is a human right!’
(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

If I had a pound for every article on including men in women-only sports, where either the headline or some poor TiM said he was being "banned" from his sport....

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 10:48

SwirlyGates · 04/08/2026 10:39

’But sport is a human right!’
(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

If I had a pound for every article on including men in women-only sports, where either the headline or some poor TiM said he was being "banned" from his sport....

Yes.

This is the thing. It is misinformation all the way down.

They are not ‘banned from sport’. They can play sport within their appropriate sex category.

It is not even clever emotional manipulation once you understand just how false that claim is.

They still have access to sport. Their rights are intact.

Posters and others misrepresenting the facts are spreading misinformation. Usually to perpetuate other false information and / or purely emotional manipulation.

puffyisgood · 04/08/2026 12:12

Re: "banned from sport", the DSD issue has just moved on to women's football.

Tomorrow night's Malawi-Zambia game will include at least five DSD males, nearly all of them in the key glamour/ attacking positions. One of them is a 40 year old who took refuge from athletics presumably after the Semenya rules came in.

All are eligible to play in Olympics and World cups, and are some of the best paid players in US and European pro leagues.

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 12:20

I first became aware of all this in sport, when transgender athlete Rachel McKinnon won the women's masters World championships in 2018. Now of course, this isn't the same as athletes with DSD's, but it is on a parallel. What I didn't know however, back in 2018, was that McKinnon wasn't the first. In 2001, another Canadian transwoman cyclist was allowed to compete in the women's category, Michelle Dumaresq and he was also allowed to win three or four Canadian national championships. After Dumaresq won the national title in 2006, there was a protest, which resulted in the female runner up being suspended.
This has led to me believing, that women's sports should be governed by women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

Michelle Dumaresq - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

murasaki · 04/08/2026 12:20

And Infantino won't do anything about it because given his recent behaviour, the support of the African Federations is pretty much all he's got. So he's not going to do anything that weakens their teams.

murasaki · 04/08/2026 12:21

Also because he gives no shits about the women's game.

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 12:27

puffyisgood · 04/08/2026 12:12

Re: "banned from sport", the DSD issue has just moved on to women's football.

Tomorrow night's Malawi-Zambia game will include at least five DSD males, nearly all of them in the key glamour/ attacking positions. One of them is a 40 year old who took refuge from athletics presumably after the Semenya rules came in.

All are eligible to play in Olympics and World cups, and are some of the best paid players in US and European pro leagues.

Edited

Wow, I knew about Zambia's Barbara Banda, I have just had a bit of a Google. Have a look at Tabitha Chawinga and let me know what you think.

FrippEnos · 04/08/2026 12:36

SwirlyGates · 04/08/2026 10:39

’But sport is a human right!’
(Sport maybe, but competing in a protected category you don’t belong to is not.)

If I had a pound for every article on including men in women-only sports, where either the headline or some poor TiM said he was being "banned" from his sport....

Its is interesting that the response to women saying that its not fair was/is practice more.

Yet the response to actual men in women's sport is equility/equity, were in reality if TIMs did practice more they now that they would fail in the sport, as they have shown by their overall placement (see Thomes at 462 in men's sports No 1 in women's)

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 12:39

puffyisgood · 04/08/2026 12:12

Re: "banned from sport", the DSD issue has just moved on to women's football.

Tomorrow night's Malawi-Zambia game will include at least five DSD males, nearly all of them in the key glamour/ attacking positions. One of them is a 40 year old who took refuge from athletics presumably after the Semenya rules came in.

All are eligible to play in Olympics and World cups, and are some of the best paid players in US and European pro leagues.

Edited

It is time for FIFA and the world football associations to get this sorted.

When you have people described as the highest paid female players who have previously failed sex screening tests it is a huge problem that these organisations are sticking their fingers in their ears and ignoring.

It will be very clear who does and doesn’t play in the Olympics if football is played.

Helleofabore · 04/08/2026 12:45

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 12:27

Wow, I knew about Zambia's Barbara Banda, I have just had a bit of a Google. Have a look at Tabitha Chawinga and let me know what you think.

I believe 3 in the Zambian team have previously failed testing or rejected testing meaning they were excluded from the African cup at one stage. Racheal Kundananji was another.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4851714-barbra-banda?page=1

Barbra Banda | Mumsnet

Does anyone have any information about the actual sex of this person? [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12282149/amp/Zambia-strike...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4851714-barbra-banda?page=1

puffyisgood · 04/08/2026 13:16

oldtiredcyclist · 04/08/2026 12:27

Wow, I knew about Zambia's Barbara Banda, I have just had a bit of a Google. Have a look at Tabitha Chawinga and let me know what you think.

The Chawingwa 'sisters' are obviousy both male. Those two and Banda are maybe the highest profile examples.

But generally it's endemic, I've not had the time or inclination to look up even all of the really egregious examples but Tanzania has at least one such player (see https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2-iggoOgJa0). Zambia has multiple others aside from Banda, e.g. Chilufya (see ) and Nachula (see ).