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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)

185 replies

impossibletoday · 31/07/2026 20:33

Noticed on the commonwealth games website. All the athletics events I looked at showed both the world record and the games record......

except the women's 800m.

Guess who holds that record from 2016.

Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
Commonwealth Games website (re Caster Semanya)
OP posts:
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14
ElenOfTheWays · 03/08/2026 01:31

ClairDeLaLune · 03/08/2026 01:10

Caster was believed to be female at birth, was brought up as female and always thought of herself as female. She didn’t know she also had some male features until after she had gained that record. She was exposed in a very humiliating way. This thread is nasty, toxic and bullying.

And I’m gender critical.

Except its become very obvious that he knew he was a male since his teens at least
Did you actually read the thread?

IndigoBluey · 03/08/2026 01:41

ClairDeLaLune · 03/08/2026 01:14

My DD plays football and played on her school’s boys’ team. Does that mean she’s a boy too? 🙄

No and your question shows you haven’t grasped the situation here. To answer your question, with another question! you have a daughter who plays football and you are asking if that means your daughter is a boy?

BloodyRoses · 03/08/2026 01:51

I'd like to think it's because they know he's a cheating male but it's probably not.

I'm so glad sex testing is now back for the female category in the Olympics. The world watching, and cheering on, men in the female boxing category was something I never thought I'd see.

That, and people saying fighting for women's rights is now considered far right 🙄

SummerNocturnal · 03/08/2026 02:01

Happy to respect she/her pronouns for Caster.
However, I still stand with Lindsey Sharp who deserved a bronze in 2016 but was beaten by 3 intersex athletes - Caster, Francine and Margaret.
I absolutely believe athletes with DSD were deliberately scouted but that meant no level playing field.
Still don't see why you couldn't have a diverse category. It was not fair on Lindsey and others.
Caster also came across in one interview as though she had been socialised as a male not female (irrespective of sex, identity or gender presentation) so it is tricky to have empathy with someone showing misogynistic attitudes.
I also think anyone - intersex, trans or cis - should want to win on their own merits in a fair fight. Anything else is cheating their peers. It isn't wrong to acknowledge that.

BloodyRoses · 03/08/2026 02:40

Why are you happy to call a male 'she' when we're specifically talking about female sports category.

And yes, he behaved like a male as a teenager, so his cheating, in my opinion, is worse because he knew he was in the wrong category.

If we could just turn back the clock on this bullshit pronoun line, we could correctly call transwomen males, he/him.

SummerNocturnal · 03/08/2026 04:10

Because she was assigned female at birth and has not chosen to switch.
That isn't her fault.
Insisting that the testerone rules "aren't fair" is.

FrippEnos · 03/08/2026 05:34

Millie767 · 02/08/2026 18:18

Dear bioessentialist Mumsnetters on this chat - if testosterone levels makes someone a man, does this make trans men on HRT men?

Oh look, another label from someone who no doubt hates it when they themselves are miss labelled.

SodThisHeadache · 03/08/2026 05:39

ClairDeLaLune · 03/08/2026 01:10

Caster was believed to be female at birth, was brought up as female and always thought of herself as female. She didn’t know she also had some male features until after she had gained that record. She was exposed in a very humiliating way. This thread is nasty, toxic and bullying.

And I’m gender critical.

Are you tag-teaming?

SodThisHeadache · 03/08/2026 05:41

SummerNocturnal · 03/08/2026 04:10

Because she was assigned female at birth and has not chosen to switch.
That isn't her fault.
Insisting that the testerone rules "aren't fair" is.

Cheating by 'not switching' is his fault.

NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2026 05:51

SummerNocturnal · 03/08/2026 04:10

Because she was assigned female at birth and has not chosen to switch.
That isn't her fault.
Insisting that the testerone rules "aren't fair" is.

Switch what?

sickofsixseven · 03/08/2026 06:11

ClairDeLaLune · 03/08/2026 01:10

Caster was believed to be female at birth, was brought up as female and always thought of herself as female. She didn’t know she also had some male features until after she had gained that record. She was exposed in a very humiliating way. This thread is nasty, toxic and bullying.

And I’m gender critical.

Its not a case of also having "some male features". Its a case of literally being a male person and having zero female reproductive parts or genes. Leaving aside the fact that semenya seems to have been treated as and lived as a boy when growing up, do you not think that at the very least, never having a period should have been a clue that something was up and would have been noticed in the teen years and investigated. They all knew.

SodThisHeadache · 03/08/2026 06:14

I post this again. Is this someone who has not 'switched' (from what I presume you mean 'identifying as female', to 'identifying as 'male')

Note he refers to women as 'they', not 'we'.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvg50P4FwTk

sanluca · 03/08/2026 06:17

Millie767 · 02/08/2026 18:18

Dear bioessentialist Mumsnetters on this chat - if testosterone levels makes someone a man, does this make trans men on HRT men?

No but it would make them ineligible to compete in the womens category as well as that would be doping.
Hence the female swimmer who identified as a transman in the team Lia Thomas also swam in, delaying her medical transition to finish her swimming career first.

Millie767 · 03/08/2026 06:29

ElenOfTheWays · 03/08/2026 01:28

I assumed from that remark that Millie doesn't know what bioessentialism means.

You seem to be interpreting what I said as the first part of this definition, rather than the second:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bioessentialism

bioessentialism

1. the belief that people's most important characteristics are controlled by…

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bioessentialism

Helleofabore · 03/08/2026 06:32

ClairDeLaLune · 03/08/2026 01:10

Caster was believed to be female at birth, was brought up as female and always thought of herself as female. She didn’t know she also had some male features until after she had gained that record. She was exposed in a very humiliating way. This thread is nasty, toxic and bullying.

And I’m gender critical.

male features

FFS!

What actual female ‘features’ does Semenya have?

What ‘features’ do you think a female person has?

Helleofabore · 03/08/2026 06:38

Millie767 · 03/08/2026 06:29

You seem to be interpreting what I said as the first part of this definition, rather than the second:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bioessentialism

Except we are discussing sex categories of human. You seem to think gender is somehow relevant to this discussion if you are relying on meaning two.

As I said, you don’t seem to understand the discussion here

Helleofabore · 03/08/2026 06:42

On pronouns.

This thread, by the way, was in answer to beccajiggens posting:

"Deliberately misgendering trans people in such aggressive ways is conduct unbecoming of a barrister. Again.
@ barstandards"

(my edit to remove auto formatting, but the barstandards was a tag on twitter, intended to bring Naomi's post to the attention of the regulation board)
Naomi's answer:

https://x.com/LoudBonnet/status/2079302831215902930?s=20

" Because I am a dissenter from gender ideology, the pronouns I use are almost invariably determined by the sex, not the gender identity, of the person I am referring to.

I understand that some people think my choice in this is unkind, or rude. I might have thought that myself a few years ago.

I no longer think that, for a number of reasons.

The first is that courtesy is freely given. A "courtesy" demanded with menaces loses its quality as such, and becomes a gesture of submission to bullies.

The second is about truth. If I say "she" of a man, I am implying that he is female. Men aren't female, so I am saying something untrue.

We all tell polite lies sometimes when it doesn't matter much. I think back when I was willing to tell this one, I thought it didn't matter much.
I know better now. What I know now is that many of the men who want to be referred to by feminine pronouns also want everyone to be forced to treat them for all purposes as if they were women, to the detriment of actual women's privacy, dignity and safety.

I think it matters a lot that we should be able to say "no" to those men, and to explain in plain words why we say no (because they are men).
The third is about clarity. Even if everyone knows in theory that the man we're all referring to as "she" is a man really, referring to him as "she" is confusing.

Clarity is fundamental to my job as an advocate: I need to be able to put my arguments as clearly and vividly as possible.

The fourth and perhaps the most important is about what's known to propagandists, advertisers and psychologists as the "repetition effect." People will believe almost any lie, however obviously untrue, if you repeat it often enough.

Lies don't get much more obviously untrue than "trans women are women."

It is repeated like a mantra by trans activists and those who see themselves (or want to be seen) as "allies."

But this lie has a superpower. The superpower is pronouns.

The near-universal compliance with "preferred pronouns," even by many of those who dissent in other ways from gender ideology, means that the lie is repeated with almost every utterance about a man who says he is a woman (or a woman who says she is a man).

And it's repeated not as an assertion, but insidiously, subliminally, by the use of little grammar-words that are normally handled on autopilot and barely registered by either speaker or listener.

It's brilliant propaganda. It's especially brilliant that so many dissenters have been induced to reinforce the lie in this way.
I'm not prepared to.

end/ "

Naomi Cunningham (@LoudBonnet) on X

Because I am a dissenter from gender ideology, the pronouns I use are almost invariably determined by the sex, not the gender identity, of the person I am referring to.

https://x.com/LoudBonnet/status/2079302831215902930?s=20

Helleofabore · 03/08/2026 06:51

It is an everyday occurrence that athletes around the world are told that they don’t qualify for a protected category they wish to compete in due to a medical condition that is beyond their control.

Why do some posters believe this group of male athletes deserve special treatment to be able to compete as a female person when those athletes are not female?

Is it because they believe these male people have been given a special ticket into the female category?

Is it because they believe that being categorised as female at birth in error when they were male is a situation so horrific that these male people deserve special treatment that no other athlete who has a condition that excludes them from a protected sports category has available to them?

SodThisHeadache · 03/08/2026 07:00

@Hellebore

"Is it because they believe that being categorised as female at birth in error when they were male is a situation so horrific that these male people deserve special treatment that no other athlete who has a condition that excludes them from a protected sports category has available to them?'

I think some people believe there is nothing as terrible for a man as to not have a penis (Semenya and other DSD males like him), or to have acted to remove that penis (the small minority of trans-identifying men who go so far to have genital surgery).

And men "we feel sorry for" attain a very special status. Above any woman, no matter her life experiences.

Edited for clarity

Helleofabore · 03/08/2026 07:08

SodThisHeadache · 03/08/2026 07:00

@Hellebore

"Is it because they believe that being categorised as female at birth in error when they were male is a situation so horrific that these male people deserve special treatment that no other athlete who has a condition that excludes them from a protected sports category has available to them?'

I think some people believe there is nothing as terrible for a man as to not have a penis (Semenya and other DSD males like him), or to have acted to remove that penis (the small minority of trans-identifying men who go so far to have genital surgery).

And men "we feel sorry for" attain a very special status. Above any woman, no matter her life experiences.

Edited for clarity

Edited

I agree with you.

But I also wonder if some people realise what their position reveals about their views. It is not just sympathy for finding out that the person discovered they were not the sex they believed they were. It is them advocating that because a group of male people were categorised in error as being female, that this group deserve some kind of special compensation.

And then you start to unpick it. Should Lyndsey Sharp be expected to call her abuser ‘she’ ?

sanluca · 03/08/2026 07:35

Millie767 · 03/08/2026 06:29

You seem to be interpreting what I said as the first part of this definition, rather than the second:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bioessentialism

Second one isn't applicable either, the opposite actually. Gender isn't controlled by someone being male or female. Someone being male or female just is a fact, gender is a mix of cultural and biological. The fact pink used to be a colour for boys and boys wore dresses when they were toddlers is a great example of that.

Sport categories and sex based services being based on sex has nothing to do with bioessentialism. We are not limiting based on gender, we are protecting based on sex.

IonianNerveGrip · 03/08/2026 08:08

ClairDeLaLune · 03/08/2026 01:10

Caster was believed to be female at birth, was brought up as female and always thought of herself as female. She didn’t know she also had some male features until after she had gained that record. She was exposed in a very humiliating way. This thread is nasty, toxic and bullying.

And I’m gender critical.

Caster, who is entirely male btw, certainly did get exposed. And I have a great deal of sympathy for the 18 year old he was in 2009, exploited by the people and power structures around him. Yeah ok you're an adult at that age, just, but I'm not convinced a person of that age could meaningfully consent to what he was getting into. It is, of course, the fault of the people who facilitated him competing in the women's race and lied through their teeth about nobody having the faintest idea.

Caster's own actions later on, once he was older, were worthy of criticism in their own right too, of course. Nobody is making him be a twat now. But he certainly was treated appallingly by the older adults around him when still a teen.

Helleofabore · 03/08/2026 08:14

Semenya also has university qualifications in sports science.

Let’s not forget that he knows exactly what he is doing.

Datun · 03/08/2026 08:17

Millie767 · 03/08/2026 06:29

You seem to be interpreting what I said as the first part of this definition, rather than the second:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bioessentialism

the belief that people's most important characteristics are controlled by biology and cannot change particularly the belief that some groups of people are naturally less good than others because of this:

No, characteristics are not by controlled biology. Biology is controlled by biology. If you have a uterus you make the babies. If you have a penis you provide the sperm. Personality characteristics need don't apply to the job!

the belief that gender is controlled by a persons body being male or female and cannot change

Again, it's the opposite. Gender is imposed by society and absolutely can change. Of course it can change. It changes across geography, history. The biggest way it changes is with bloody feminism.

Hence gender critical feminism.

How can these people get it so wrong??

Guess who thinks characteristics make you a different sex? Trans ideology says that if a boy child likes dolls and dresses and sparkles he must be a girl. Gender reinforcement.

Not gender criticism.

flowersinmyheart · 03/08/2026 09:21

I think this is an extremely sad case .
Samenya was born in South Africa in a rural village far from a big city . She grew up in a large family in a home with no running water or electricity with a “long drop “ toilet . Her father was absent for lmonths at a time as he worked in Johannesburg as a gardener . She grew up identifying as a female who was a bit “different “ . Nature can be very cruel but SHE was born the way she is and she refuse s to take hormone suppressing medication. Why should she ? She is what she is .

In her autobiography, The race to be myself , She defends herself with grace and determination which in the words of the Guardian reviewer should be celebrated.
in the words of the Cas ruling : Natural human biology does not map perfectly on to legal status and gender identity.
Casper labels herself “ I am an African . I am a woman . I am a different woman .