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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces

1000 replies

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:32

Started because a thread on Girlguiding was getting too off topic.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Iwantanothergo · Yesterday 14:00

It depends on your definition of "woman". If you think that just saying "I feel like a woman so I am a woman" is enough to make the speaker a woman, then transwomen plus any well-trained parrots are women.

If, on the other hand, you think that "woman" means "adult human female" (just as there are different words for female adults of other mammals, such as cow, mare, vixen, hen etc.) then you know that "TWAW" is a load of bollocks.

banmusk · Yesterday 14:00

Trans-woman
Definition:
A man who feels that men are inherently superior to women and is resentful because he has not achieved the status and recognition that he believes he deserves. His lack of status as a man makes him especially resentful that women now have more opportunities for status and recognition. In the old days this type of man was able to cope because at least he had it better than women do, at least he could feel superior to women. But now that women are getting ahead of him; achieving higher status in life etc, the only way he can cope is by convincing himself that he is a woman.

Robogob · Yesterday 14:00

Transwomen are men. And so are you, OP. Your stupid rubbish is on the way out.

Transwomen are men and that is the truth, a fact, and the law. Deal with it.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Yesterday 14:00

EarthSight · Yesterday 13:52

Does anyone have a recipe for some nice, fiery ginger biscuits? I'd like to also make something with ricotta is someone has any suggestions.

I had a delightful salad with three different types of beetroot (pickled) on a bed of ricotta - no recipe (twas a restaurant) but I bet it wouldn’t be hard to wing.

MargaretMeldrew · Yesterday 14:01

I thought there was going to be a punchline when I saw the title. But no, just your common or garden man telling us he’s a woman. Again. Look OP, just wear your dress and carry your handbag. I’m honestly ok with that. Just stay out of the women’s bogs. Ta very much.

PearlButtons · Yesterday 14:01

If transwomen are women then why did Nicola "I see no motor home" Sturgeon transfer male rapist Isla Bryson to a male jail.

Nicola believes transwomen are women so why on earth did she send a woman, poor Isla, to a men's jail.

Surely if any other woman in Scotland had been sent to a male jail, there would be uproar and yet Nicola did this appalling thing to poor Isla,

Could it just be because... even Nicola believes that a man will always be male from the day he is born to the day he dies because if she doesn't. then what on earth was she thinking by transferring Isla to a male jail.

When it comes right down to it, the magic thinking will always fail.

Datun · Yesterday 14:01

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 13:49

@user08101988 Almost every factual conclusion you have drawn here is demonstrably wrong or materially misstated. Your own paper says its trans participants were biologically and genetically male; the “92 offenders” statistic is outdated and uses the wrong denominator; and the bathroom study was not CNN research and did not find that inclusive laws caused significantly lower assault rates. Here is what the evidence actually says.

1. “Trans women are women” is not a scientific finding

In a biological or sex-based context, a trans woman is male: a male person with a female gender identity. Some people use “woman” as an identity category socially, but that convention cannot change sex. The ONS defines a trans woman as someone registered male at birth who identifies as a woman. HMPPS defines transgender women as biological males who identify as female. The Supreme Court unanimously held that “woman”, “man” and “sex” in the Equality Act refer to biological sex. Trans people remain protected under gender reassignment.
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/articles/census2021genderidentityestimatesforenglandandwalesadditionalguidanceonuncertaintyandappropriateuse/2025-03-26
www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hmpps-offender-equalities-annual-report-2024-to-2025/hmpps-offender-equalities-annual-report-2024-25--2
www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042

2. This was not “a study done by the NIH”

It was a 2022 Journal of Clinical Medicine paper by researchers affiliated with Auckland, Jena, Missouri, UCLA, USC and Uppsala. NIH funding and a copy in PubMed Central do not mean the NIH conducted it; PMC is a repository.
neuro-jena.github.io/pdf/Kurth-JCM22.pdf

3. The paper directly contradicts the claim that its subjects were biologically female

The 24 trans participants were described as “biological sex: male; perceived gender: female”. Every one was confirmed to carry the SRY gene associated with male development, and none had started cross-sex hormones.

On the paper’s scale, 0 was the average female control and 1 the average male control. The trans group averaged 0.75: much closer to the male reference and statistically different from both groups. The authors suggested a possible neuroanatomical correlate of gender identity. They did not conclude the participants were female; they repeatedly called them biological and genetic males.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

4. A “brain-sex” score is not somebody’s actual sex

This was a probabilistic machine-learning score based on average structural patterns. The classifier was only 88.3% accurate in controls, demonstrating overlap. A female with a relatively male-typical scan remains female; a male with a relatively female-typical scan remains male.

The authors acknowledged there was no clear consensus and called for larger replication. A much larger ENIGMA analysis of 803 people, including 172 untreated trans women, found complex region-dependent patterns and a distinct phenotype, not brains that had become the opposite sex. Neuroanatomy may inform research into gender identity; it does not reclassify sex.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34030966/

5. Sex is binary and immutable

Human reproduction is organised around two and only two gamete types: sperm and ova. Male and female are the two reproductive sexes. Differences of sex development can make characteristics atypical; they do not create a third gamete or sex.

Breasts, body-fat distribution, facial hair and voice are secondary sexual characteristics. The clue is in “secondary”: they do not define sex. Hormones and surgery can alter some secondary characteristics and appearance, but cannot change the reproductive pathway that developed the body or turn a male into a female.
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.202200173

6. “Trans is an adjective” proves nothing, and women need not accept “cis”

Grammar is not biology. “Trans woman” names a male person with a female gender identity; adding an adjective does not place that person in the female sex class.

“Cis” is a comparatively recent label for people who are not trans. Most women reject it as imposed and some regard it as offensive because they do not identify with an inner gender identity: they are simply women, meaning adult human females. Most people consider it a slur, but nobody is obliged to call herself “cis”. There is one female sex; a linguistic label cannot make males a type of female.

7. “92 trans-woman sex offenders is 0.000135% of the population” is statistically meaningless

That percentage divides 92 by roughly 68 million—the entire UK population, most of whom are not trans women. Using the older rough ONS figure of 48,000 trans women would make 92 about 0.19%, not 0.000135%, although the ONS now warns against treating its Census figure as a reliable population-size estimate.

Nor is 92 current. The MoJ reported that on 31 March 2024, 151 of 245 transgender prisoners whose legal sex was male had a sexual-offence conviction. The category also included people identifying as non-binary or gender-fluid, so it should not be relabelled as exactly 151 trans women; but it disproves the claimed current total of 92.
questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20297

8. Inclusive areas were not shown to have significantly fewer sexual assaults

This was not CNN research. The study compared a small number of Massachusetts localities, not inclusive states with ban states. Its principal analysis found no statistically significant relationship between adopting the policy and recorded restroom incidents (p=0.454). It therefore does not show that inclusive laws caused lower assault rates. It found no measurable increase either, but that narrower null result is not the claim you made.
escholarship.org/content/qt4rs4n6h0/qt4rs4n6h0.pdf

9. “You are reducing women to body parts” is a failed gotcha

Nobody serious defines a woman by one body part or by successfully having babies. Infertile women, women without a uterus and post-menopausal women remain female because sex concerns overall reproductive development, not current fertility or a checklist of parts.

The attempted gotcha is rubbish as an argument. Women’s historical oppression was imposed because they were female: through pregnancy risk, reproductive control, physical vulnerability, exclusion from education and property, and male violence. Feminism required naming the sex class affected. Recognising it is not regressive; pretending it can be entered by declaration is.

10. None of this establishes a right to enter female-only spaces

An MRI score, identity and preferred adjective cannot decide safeguarding policy. The Supreme Court confirmed that the female class under the Equality Act is biological. Schedule 3 permits genuinely single-sex services where justified and proportionate, including situations involving undressing, physical contact, privacy, dignity and vulnerability. The 2026 draft EHRC code says admitting trans women to a female-only service means it is no longer single-sex under the Act, while recommending mixed-sex or individual alternatives where practicable.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/pdfs/ukpga_20100015_en.pdf
www.gov.uk/government/publications/equality-act-2010-code-of-practice-for-services-public-functions-and-associations-2026/equality-act-2010-draft-code-of-practice-for-services-public-functions-and-associations-2026

Risk cannot be waved away. In the England and Wales prison cohort on 31 March 2024, 151 of 245 legal-male transgender prisoners had a sexual-offence conviction: 61.6%, compared with about 17% of the overall male prison population—more than three and a half times the proportion. “Sexual offence” includes contact and non-contact offences, and prison data do not imply every trans person is an offender. They do show why it is reckless to insist that male sex is irrelevant in prisons and other intimate or vulnerable settings.
questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20297
hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2025-11-24/debates/39E38194-1453-4B00-B552-2549E0643A42/details

11. You can state your pronouns and say you feel non-binary; others need not agree that this changes your sex

Pronouns and descriptions such as “trans-fem non-binary” are statements about personal identity, not evidence about sex. You may describe your feelings and request particular language. Other people may reject the belief that identity changes sex or makes a male person a woman in a sex-based context. Courtesy cannot require women to deny material reality or surrender their boundaries.

A male person can know discomfort with being male or an affinity with femininity. That does not provide the lived experience of developing through female puberty, menstruation, pregnancy risk, menopause, female physical vulnerability or being treated throughout life on the basis of being female. Feeling feminine is not being female; femininity is a set of cultural stereotypes, not the definition of womanhood.

Your evidence therefore does not show that trans women are biologically female. It shows SRY-confirmed males with a group-average brain pattern somewhat less male-typical than the controls, while remaining closer to them. That may inform research into gender identity. It neither changes sex nor creates an automatic entitlement to women’s single-sex spaces.

8. Inclusive areas were not shown to have significantly fewer sexual assaults

Also, it's a pretty bloody low bar. At least we're not attacking you, luv.

All women know that a man can make her feel scared with merely a twitch of the eyebrow, a lascivious look, a smirk.

Especially in her own space, and even more especially when he knows she doesn't want him there.

He doesn't have to do anything, eye contact will do it.

And the fact that some men use well we're not even raping you, luv, as a justification, tells you everything you need to know.

BirdLandedonmyHead · Yesterday 14:01

Im pleased this has been moved out of the LGB children board.

My DD (Lesbian and "Gender Non Conforming") got a lot of bullying becaude she did fit in peoples narrow minded boxes anout how a girl shouldnt behave. Including a lot of taunts (from boys) abput how she must be a boy, not a girl, as girls cant do X, Y and Z.

Tallisker · Yesterday 14:01

Also, how very unoriginal. Nul points. Tedious and boring enough easily to win a being tedious and boring competition.

Hoardasurass · Yesterday 14:02

BeanQuisine · Yesterday 13:33

The obvious fact that others have pointed out - so obvious it shouldn't need pointing out - is that you can't be a "transwoman" unless you're a man.

It's essential to the definition of the term. Women cannot be "transwomen", only men. Any woman claiming to be a "transwoman" would be laughed at, or very ironically, condemned for "identity theft".

So yes, Transwomen are Obviously Real Men and Should Not Have Access to Women's Spaces.

Do you remember the 2 women on only fans who put packers in their underwear and pretended to be transwomen? The trans activists went absolutely nuts it was hilarious 😂

AlexaAdventuress · Yesterday 14:02

It's already been said by @ProfessorBinturong and @SingleSexSpacesInSchools but in figure 1 of the article you could pretty much superimpose the envelope of so-called 'trans women's' characteristics on the envelope of the males and they'd not be very different. Also, with relatively small samples like this, you could probably divide them up on the basis of a variety of characteristics and find differences. Level of extraversion, level of autism symptomatology, level of depression, even possibly demographic characteristics like education or occupation (remember all that stuff about the hippocampi of London taxi drivers or the motor cortices of stringed instrument players). Patterns of brain structure and function may be an outcome just as much as a cause.

Also, we don't know that the trans participants were drug naive. Given the brisk trade in pills on the internet and the activities of outfits like Gender GP, I wonder how many were genuinely drug/hormone naive?

YourTidyGreyRobin · Yesterday 14:03

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:45

They are called women, much like women who were assigned female at birth are cisgender women. Trans is just an adjective

Woman who are born woman are called 'women'.

Lisajane47 · Yesterday 14:03

They never where and are never going to be!!!! End of.

WearyAuldWumman · Yesterday 14:03

EarthSight · Yesterday 13:52

Does anyone have a recipe for some nice, fiery ginger biscuits? I'd like to also make something with ricotta is someone has any suggestions.

No recipes to offer, but I too would be interested.

Seabubbles · Yesterday 14:04

Try actually asking Girl Guides. My 12 year old daughter is a Girl Guide and said she wouldn't feel comfortable with a boy joining calling himself a girl just because he's wearing their Guide Uniform. sleeping in a tent with them and getting changed next to them. Why don't the rights and wishes of these young girls matter, or are they to grow up being told that what boys and men want takes priority over their wishes. Just like their Grandmothers who needed a man's permission to open a bank account. I will not have my young Daughter and her peers intimidated by Men and Boys in dresses. Get in the bin.

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 14:05

Hoardasurass · Yesterday 14:02

Do you remember the 2 women on only fans who put packers in their underwear and pretended to be transwomen? The trans activists went absolutely nuts it was hilarious 😂

Such fun.

ETA there is supposed to be images attached!

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Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces
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Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces
Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces
Gymnopedie · Yesterday 14:06

EarthSight · Yesterday 13:52

Does anyone have a recipe for some nice, fiery ginger biscuits? I'd like to also make something with ricotta is someone has any suggestions.

Raspberry ricotta cake recipe - BBC Food

Delish

PrettyPickle · Yesterday 14:06

I think part of the problem is the way these discussions get framed. When you start with “Trans women are real women and should have access to women’s spaces”, you’re not actually asking a question, you’re presenting a conclusion and expecting everyone to agree with it.

For me, the more useful conversation is: how do we make sure everyone is included and everyone is safe? That’s a very different starting point.

There are lots of practical solutions that don’t require redefining womanhood or removing boundaries that exist for safeguarding reasons. Things like unisex single‑occupancy toilets, individual changing cubicles, mixed‑gender facilities alongside women‑only ones, clear safeguarding policies that apply to all users
These options include trans people without removing the spaces that many women rely on for privacy, dignity, and safety. It doesn’t have to be framed as “all or nothing”, or “you’re either inclusive or you’re not”.

The current framing forces people into ideological corners. A more constructive approach is looking at practical design and policy that meets everyone’s needs without erasing anyone’s boundaries.

Single sex sporting events and such like are more complicated but a lot of the issues people are arguing about are easily solvable in the long-term if we are of a mind to make it happen. And lets face it, as a woman, I object to large queues for the women's toilets and there never are for men, so unisex cubicles would be a big improvement for us ladies (whether dressed as ladies from birth or not).

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 14:06

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:42

So, trans women are women. I have the evidence too. This is a study done by the NIH looking into the neuro-anatomy of 24 trans women pre-hormone therapy. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

There are also currently a total of 92 sex offenders who are trans women (this is 0.000135% of the population btw).

CNN did research into bathroom issues in the USA comparing states with inclusive laws vs. bans for trans women. They called various police departments and asked for crime data to do with trans people in the bathrooms that correspond with their perceived gender in both types of state. The conclusion showed that the inclusive law states had significantly lower instances of sexual assault in bathrooms as a whole. In the inclusive law states, many police departments reported 0 crimes.

This is a study done by the NIH looking into the neuro-anatomy of 24 trans women pre-hormone therapy.

Yet they didn't change sex and even if that were possible, there is no obligation to take hormones. You seem to be discussing a far narrower classification that what is currently understood by 'trans'.

There are also currently a total of 92 sex offenders who are trans women (this is 0.000135% of the population btw).

Whether you think these people represent the trans community or are just sex offenders who want to game the system, they are all men. Your point is not clear.

CNN did research into bathroom issues in the USA comparing states with inclusive laws vs. bans for trans women. They called various police departments and asked for crime data to do with trans people in the bathrooms that correspond with their perceived gender in both types of state. The conclusion showed that the inclusive law states had significantly lower instances of sexual assault in bathrooms as a whole. In the inclusive law states, many police departments reported 0 crimes.

I always think it's better to use accurate language. We no longer have public bathrooms in the UK. However, if you think toilets should be mixed sex you should certainly campaign for that. You should however be aware that data on mixed sex changing rooms suggests increased instances of assault, voyeruism and indecent exposure.

There is no way to perceive somebody's gender as that is a personal matter. It's unclear how you would do this or what the purpose would be. I don't know what they get up to in the USA, but this kind of segregation is not the norm in the UK.

RosieTheHat · Yesterday 14:06

Prove it

akkakk · Yesterday 14:06

UprightCitizensBrigade · Yesterday 13:34

Hey @user08101988 I have read the study- very interesting. It isn't quite the 'eureka' moment you are hoping for though...

"The Brain Sex of transgender women was estimated as 0.75 ± 0.39, thus hovering between cisgender men and cisgender women, albeit closer to cisgender men (see also Figure 1). The follow-up post hoc tests revealed that transgender women were significantly more female than cisgender men (Cohen’s d = 0.64, t(46) = 2.20, p = 0.016), but significantly less female than cisgender women (Cohen’s d = 1.87, t(46) = 6.48, p < 0.001)"

So it seems the transgender women who were tested have brain sex of somewhere in between Male and Female but closer to male.

Edited

wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the tested 'TW' simply expand the range applicable to men - they are after all men, as much as all of those in the men class - so their results should be in there...

do that and you can simply say that men and women have different brains and within men and women categories there is a range as well - not an overall surprise...

OP - there is no such thing as Trans or Trans-woman - as it is not biologically possible to transition

OP - there is no such thing as non-Binary as sex is binary and you are born male or female

OP - from your own statements you were born a man - you are therefore still a man and your pronouns are simply he / him - never she as you are not female / a woman, and never they or them as even were you to have a multiple-personality disorder, you would still always be one person - never more than one!

OP there is no such thing as CIS-women - women are women and that is all that exists - humans are either men or women - it is terribly simple, even the average toddler knows it!

PearlButtons · Yesterday 14:06

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:50

I appreciate the question. I am a trans-fem non-binary person. This means, while I was AMAB, I mostly see myself aligned with femininity. However, I do not see myself within the binary of gender, so that's why I use those pronouns

Have you ever had a pair of bollocks?

Yes.

You're a man.

idontknowhowtodreamyourdreams · Yesterday 14:07

No, no, no.

BoredZelda · Yesterday 14:07

Seabubbles · Yesterday 14:04

Try actually asking Girl Guides. My 12 year old daughter is a Girl Guide and said she wouldn't feel comfortable with a boy joining calling himself a girl just because he's wearing their Guide Uniform. sleeping in a tent with them and getting changed next to them. Why don't the rights and wishes of these young girls matter, or are they to grow up being told that what boys and men want takes priority over their wishes. Just like their Grandmothers who needed a man's permission to open a bank account. I will not have my young Daughter and her peers intimidated by Men and Boys in dresses. Get in the bin.

I did ask, when she was in Guides, my daughter said she’d be fine with it. One of her school friends is trans so she can’t see what any of the fuss is about.

GreyskySexRealistsky · Yesterday 14:07

RosieTheHat · Yesterday 14:06

Prove it

If only someone had said this 10 years ago! Things might have turned out so differently

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