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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces

1000 replies

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:32

Started because a thread on Girlguiding was getting too off topic.

OP posts:
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18
Seethlaw · Yesterday 13:45

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:45

They are called women, much like women who were assigned female at birth are cisgender women. Trans is just an adjective

Oh? Then tell me: what's the difference between trans women and so-called cis women?

The difference between white women and Black women is in the colour of their skin.

The difference between abled women and disabled women is in what they can do without assistance.

What's the difference between trans women and so-called cis women?

RareGoalsVerge · Yesterday 13:46

If access to a space is for "women" and "any male who wants to come in" then that is a mixed sex space

Women have the right to single sex spaces.

There is nothing wrong with also having mixed sex spaces, it is fine to have choices, but women's rights to single sex spaces are not up for negotiation and any womens space that admits transwomen is not single sex.

Refusing to take "no" for an answer, thinking that your desires should override a woman's personal autonomy to choose whether to be in a state of undress or vulnerability in the presence of an unknown male, these are very masculine traits, I don't think you are as feminine as you think you are @user08101988. Why not try cultivating the trait of putting other people's needs before your own, that's something that girls get socialised into from a very early age way more than boys are.

Boiledbeetle · Yesterday 13:46

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 13:38

A trans identified man barged into a space that wasn't designed for him and then proceeded to make everything all about him?

Colour me astonished.

I do wonder if he chose that board because he is still actually a child himself.

It would explain why he thought he could come on to Mumsnet and school a bunch of women that he is a special male and that therefore means we should bow down to his wishes and give up our words and spaces for him.

Although he can't be an actual child though as he claims to have a phd, unless he's one of those child prodigy kids.

FlorenceAndTheVagine · Yesterday 13:47

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BumblebeesandPaperbags · Yesterday 13:47

Oovavuuuu · Yesterday 13:20

Mumsnet is just an echo chamber for the anti trans movement. It's not how most people feel in real life. I wouldn't even bother debating here as people aren't interested in different view points.

I’m not “anti-trans” people are entitled to their own beliefs and to behave (as long as it is legal) in anyway that they choose.

Trans people should be able to conduct their lives free from harassment and discrimination.

But men are not entitled (legally or morally) to be in women only spaces.

And you have no idea “how most people feel”. The chilling effect of years of “no debate” activism mean that most people keep quiet.

The silence of the majority should not be taken as consent.

The very fact that trans people are regularly described as vulnerable and marginalised demonstrates that.

galaxyfaraways · Yesterday 13:47

Should woman have access to male spaces as well then?

lazyarse123 · Yesterday 13:49

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:45

They are called women, much like women who were assigned female at birth are cisgender women. Trans is just an adjective

We weren't assigned anything at birth we just are. And no need for the cis shit either, we are women that's it.

Samysungy · Yesterday 13:49

Seethlaw · Yesterday 13:45

Oh? Then tell me: what's the difference between trans women and so-called cis women?

The difference between white women and Black women is in the colour of their skin.

The difference between abled women and disabled women is in what they can do without assistance.

What's the difference between trans women and so-called cis women?

How does a woman become a transwoman? Always the question to ask!

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 13:49

@user08101988 Almost every factual conclusion you have drawn here is demonstrably wrong or materially misstated. Your own paper says its trans participants were biologically and genetically male; the “92 offenders” statistic is outdated and uses the wrong denominator; and the bathroom study was not CNN research and did not find that inclusive laws caused significantly lower assault rates. Here is what the evidence actually says.

1. “Trans women are women” is not a scientific finding

In a biological or sex-based context, a trans woman is male: a male person with a female gender identity. Some people use “woman” as an identity category socially, but that convention cannot change sex. The ONS defines a trans woman as someone registered male at birth who identifies as a woman. HMPPS defines transgender women as biological males who identify as female. The Supreme Court unanimously held that “woman”, “man” and “sex” in the Equality Act refer to biological sex. Trans people remain protected under gender reassignment.
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/articles/census2021genderidentityestimatesforenglandandwalesadditionalguidanceonuncertaintyandappropriateuse/2025-03-26
www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hmpps-offender-equalities-annual-report-2024-to-2025/hmpps-offender-equalities-annual-report-2024-25--2
www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2024-0042

2. This was not “a study done by the NIH”

It was a 2022 Journal of Clinical Medicine paper by researchers affiliated with Auckland, Jena, Missouri, UCLA, USC and Uppsala. NIH funding and a copy in PubMed Central do not mean the NIH conducted it; PMC is a repository.
neuro-jena.github.io/pdf/Kurth-JCM22.pdf

3. The paper directly contradicts the claim that its subjects were biologically female

The 24 trans participants were described as “biological sex: male; perceived gender: female”. Every one was confirmed to carry the SRY gene associated with male development, and none had started cross-sex hormones.

On the paper’s scale, 0 was the average female control and 1 the average male control. The trans group averaged 0.75: much closer to the male reference and statistically different from both groups. The authors suggested a possible neuroanatomical correlate of gender identity. They did not conclude the participants were female; they repeatedly called them biological and genetic males.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

4. A “brain-sex” score is not somebody’s actual sex

This was a probabilistic machine-learning score based on average structural patterns. The classifier was only 88.3% accurate in controls, demonstrating overlap. A female with a relatively male-typical scan remains female; a male with a relatively female-typical scan remains male.

The authors acknowledged there was no clear consensus and called for larger replication. A much larger ENIGMA analysis of 803 people, including 172 untreated trans women, found complex region-dependent patterns and a distinct phenotype, not brains that had become the opposite sex. Neuroanatomy may inform research into gender identity; it does not reclassify sex.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34030966/

5. Sex is binary and immutable

Human reproduction is organised around two and only two gamete types: sperm and ova. Male and female are the two reproductive sexes. Differences of sex development can make characteristics atypical; they do not create a third gamete or sex.

Breasts, body-fat distribution, facial hair and voice are secondary sexual characteristics. The clue is in “secondary”: they do not define sex. Hormones and surgery can alter some secondary characteristics and appearance, but cannot change the reproductive pathway that developed the body or turn a male into a female.
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bies.202200173

6. “Trans is an adjective” proves nothing, and women need not accept “cis”

Grammar is not biology. “Trans woman” names a male person with a female gender identity; adding an adjective does not place that person in the female sex class.

“Cis” is a comparatively recent label for people who are not trans. Most women reject it as imposed and some regard it as offensive because they do not identify with an inner gender identity: they are simply women, meaning adult human females. Most people consider it a slur, but nobody is obliged to call herself “cis”. There is one female sex; a linguistic label cannot make males a type of female.

7. “92 trans-woman sex offenders is 0.000135% of the population” is statistically meaningless

That percentage divides 92 by roughly 68 million—the entire UK population, most of whom are not trans women. Using the older rough ONS figure of 48,000 trans women would make 92 about 0.19%, not 0.000135%, although the ONS now warns against treating its Census figure as a reliable population-size estimate.

Nor is 92 current. The MoJ reported that on 31 March 2024, 151 of 245 transgender prisoners whose legal sex was male had a sexual-offence conviction. The category also included people identifying as non-binary or gender-fluid, so it should not be relabelled as exactly 151 trans women; but it disproves the claimed current total of 92.
questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20297

8. Inclusive areas were not shown to have significantly fewer sexual assaults

This was not CNN research. The study compared a small number of Massachusetts localities, not inclusive states with ban states. Its principal analysis found no statistically significant relationship between adopting the policy and recorded restroom incidents (p=0.454). It therefore does not show that inclusive laws caused lower assault rates. It found no measurable increase either, but that narrower null result is not the claim you made.
escholarship.org/content/qt4rs4n6h0/qt4rs4n6h0.pdf

9. “You are reducing women to body parts” is a failed gotcha

Nobody serious defines a woman by one body part or by successfully having babies. Infertile women, women without a uterus and post-menopausal women remain female because sex concerns overall reproductive development, not current fertility or a checklist of parts.

The attempted gotcha is rubbish as an argument. Women’s historical oppression was imposed because they were female: through pregnancy risk, reproductive control, physical vulnerability, exclusion from education and property, and male violence. Feminism required naming the sex class affected. Recognising it is not regressive; pretending it can be entered by declaration is.

10. None of this establishes a right to enter female-only spaces

An MRI score, identity and preferred adjective cannot decide safeguarding policy. The Supreme Court confirmed that the female class under the Equality Act is biological. Schedule 3 permits genuinely single-sex services where justified and proportionate, including situations involving undressing, physical contact, privacy, dignity and vulnerability. The 2026 draft EHRC code says admitting trans women to a female-only service means it is no longer single-sex under the Act, while recommending mixed-sex or individual alternatives where practicable.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/pdfs/ukpga_20100015_en.pdf
www.gov.uk/government/publications/equality-act-2010-code-of-practice-for-services-public-functions-and-associations-2026/equality-act-2010-draft-code-of-practice-for-services-public-functions-and-associations-2026

Risk cannot be waved away. In the England and Wales prison cohort on 31 March 2024, 151 of 245 legal-male transgender prisoners had a sexual-offence conviction: 61.6%, compared with about 17% of the overall male prison population—more than three and a half times the proportion. “Sexual offence” includes contact and non-contact offences, and prison data do not imply every trans person is an offender. They do show why it is reckless to insist that male sex is irrelevant in prisons and other intimate or vulnerable settings.
questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20297
hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2025-11-24/debates/39E38194-1453-4B00-B552-2549E0643A42/details

11. You can state your pronouns and say you feel non-binary; others need not agree that this changes your sex

Pronouns and descriptions such as “trans-fem non-binary” are statements about personal identity, not evidence about sex. You may describe your feelings and request particular language. Other people may reject the belief that identity changes sex or makes a male person a woman in a sex-based context. Courtesy cannot require women to deny material reality or surrender their boundaries.

A male person can know discomfort with being male or an affinity with femininity. That does not provide the lived experience of developing through female puberty, menstruation, pregnancy risk, menopause, female physical vulnerability or being treated throughout life on the basis of being female. Feeling feminine is not being female; femininity is a set of cultural stereotypes, not the definition of womanhood.

Your evidence therefore does not show that trans women are biologically female. It shows SRY-confirmed males with a group-average brain pattern somewhat less male-typical than the controls, while remaining closer to them. That may inform research into gender identity. It neither changes sex nor creates an automatic entitlement to women’s single-sex spaces.

TwinklySquid · Yesterday 13:51

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:42

So, trans women are women. I have the evidence too. This is a study done by the NIH looking into the neuro-anatomy of 24 trans women pre-hormone therapy. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

There are also currently a total of 92 sex offenders who are trans women (this is 0.000135% of the population btw).

CNN did research into bathroom issues in the USA comparing states with inclusive laws vs. bans for trans women. They called various police departments and asked for crime data to do with trans people in the bathrooms that correspond with their perceived gender in both types of state. The conclusion showed that the inclusive law states had significantly lower instances of sexual assault in bathrooms as a whole. In the inclusive law states, many police departments reported 0 crimes.

So 92 isn’t enough numbers to say trans women offend at higher rates, but 24 is enough for a brain study. Okay..

Mumofoneandone · Yesterday 13:51

There are 2 sexes (intersex is a separate issue and a medical diagnosis). You cannot change sex.
Gender is totally different from sex.
Sex is decided at conception, not 'assigned at birth'
Cis women do not exist.
Single sex spaces for males or females is acceptable.
Please stop claiming otherwise.

Datun · Yesterday 13:51

I love that we get (erroneously) told off for reducing women to their anatomy, by him producing a study comparing male and female brain anatomy.

Translogic - the opposite of logic.

MyrtleLion · Yesterday 13:51

Are we biting properly and getting out our studies of the danger that men identifying as women are more likely to be sex offenders than those who don’t?

Do we need to summarise FWS and the Tribunal results and all the other cases in our favour?

Or can we completely derail this thread with memes about Tunnocks Teacakes, favourite karaoke songs and silly gifs?

I have exciting stories about gerbils, with a new story starting today, and I can design T-shirts (using AI) with great sex-realist slogans. Just say the word.

Happy So Excited GIF
Theeyeballsinthesky · Yesterday 13:52

Oh joy the summer holidays begin - goady mcgoady face thread!

anyway they are men - always were men, always will be

Seethlaw · Yesterday 13:52

Oovavuuuu · Yesterday 13:20

Mumsnet is just an echo chamber for the anti trans movement. It's not how most people feel in real life. I wouldn't even bother debating here as people aren't interested in different view points.

People here have shown themselves far more interested in my trans view points, than the oppressive TRA circles I was once in. So I know who I'll call intolerant, and who I'll call open-minded.

EarthSight · Yesterday 13:52

Does anyone have a recipe for some nice, fiery ginger biscuits? I'd like to also make something with ricotta is someone has any suggestions.

BackToLurk · Yesterday 13:52

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:53

They are biological females due to this study: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

Also, if you think stripping down what women are to their body parts, that's what feminists fought against for years. Now women can get jobs, start bank accounts, own property, and so many more things. This is a very regressive view of what women are.

Genuine question coming up. Can you read?

Waterbaby41 · Yesterday 13:53

You are not and never will be a woman, so no you should never have access to women only spaces.

GCAcademic · Yesterday 13:54

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:50

I appreciate the question. I am a trans-fem non-binary person. This means, while I was AMAB, I mostly see myself aligned with femininity. However, I do not see myself within the binary of gender, so that's why I use those pronouns

You're male. A man.Your delusions do not allow you access to female spaces. That is the law.

BackToLurk · Yesterday 13:54

EarthSight · Yesterday 13:52

Does anyone have a recipe for some nice, fiery ginger biscuits? I'd like to also make something with ricotta is someone has any suggestions.

I don't, but if you put mixed spice in banana bread, rather than cinnamon, it gives it quite a nice gingery kick. I think all ginger would be too much though.

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 13:55

I appreciate the question. I am a trans-fem non-binary person. This means, while I was AMAB, I mostly see myself aligned with femininity. However, I do not see myself within the binary of gender, so that's why I use those pronouns

I feel like this is actually quite a useful thing to have said, because it illuminates perfectly the problem most of us have with all this.

  1. First the approval of being asked to talk about himself and his feelings over and above the biological or legal facts of the issue on a population level. Most people understand that laws are not based on feelings.
  1. Then the overcomplication of very simple ideas; the simple sex classes of male and female being expanded into jargony talk of AMAB, transfem, non binary - not least the fact that these all seem to contradict each other.
  1. Finally the statement of the bleeding obvious as though it's something profound or special ("I do not see myself within the binary of gender"). Most people don't spend very much time navel gazing about how "masculine" or "feminine" they are, they just crack on with their lives.

You don't need a special badge and a podcast, you need a reality check and a proper job.

Royaly82 · Yesterday 13:55

Absolutely not and I dont want anyone with a penis in spaces my four daughters use either (nor myself)

NototerrorismIntheUK · Yesterday 13:55

Screamingabdabz · Yesterday 12:33

They’re not and they shouldn’t.

THIS

They aren't and they shouldn't.

Trans 'women' or trans identified men (Tim's) are biological men who feel they should be women. They can live as their version of what they think a woman might live like, that's up to them. They cannot force their belief that a person can change their bilogical sex, because they cannot. Facts matter. Science - DNA matters.

TheCactusSpokes · Yesterday 13:56

Summeriscumin · Yesterday 12:41

No penises in women only spaces. It's not hard.

Unfortunately penises are usually hard on women's only spaces which is why we need to keep them women only

Gotback · Yesterday 14:00

Cobblers & no they should not.

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