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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces

1000 replies

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:32

Started because a thread on Girlguiding was getting too off topic.

OP posts:
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18
Waitingfordoggo · Yesterday 13:25

I feel like I must have dozed off and woken up in 2015.

Iocanepowder · Yesterday 13:26

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:50

I appreciate the question. I am a trans-fem non-binary person. This means, while I was AMAB, I mostly see myself aligned with femininity. However, I do not see myself within the binary of gender, so that's why I use those pronouns

All that does it make you sound like you think you are really special and that people care that you don’t identify with either gender.

Also, if you died in a massive fire and you were only identifiable by DNA testing, which sex do you think the police would be looking for in terms of your medical records?

BettyBag · Yesterday 13:26

Oovavuuuu · Yesterday 13:20

Mumsnet is just an echo chamber for the anti trans movement. It's not how most people feel in real life. I wouldn't even bother debating here as people aren't interested in different view points.

https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

Pretty reflective actually.

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25?

Scepticism towards transgender rights has grown across the board since 2022

https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

BumblebeesandPaperbags · Yesterday 13:27

The only criteria required to become is transwoman is to be a man. Women cannot be transwomen.

You have repeated your preferred pronouns more than once on this thread. You can choose how to describe yourself and some people may, out of courtesy or fear go along with it. But you can’t force anyone else to use your preferred pronouns.

It doesn’t matter how many studies you post, human beings, like all mammals, are a sexually dimorphic species.

There are two distinct categories male and female. These two categories are required to continue the species. How an individual feels doesn't negate material reality.

For most purposes is doesn't matter what sex you are (which is what the feminists you referred to in your OP were trying to explain).

But for a few things, it is important to know whether someone is male or female (for example health) and for a few more things we keep men and women separate for safety, dignity and privacy.

Women are statistically at risk from men.

All men.

Even harmless men, even good men, even men who think they are women, even men who think they “exist outwith the binary”.

So transwomen should not be in any female only space.

The reason certain spaces, buildings and organisations are female only is because toilets, prisons, hospitals, refuges, group therapy sessions are places were women are especially vulnerable to harm from men (all men)

Women understand why transwomen want to be allowed, even welcomed into these spaces.

But Transwomen are men, so they are categorically not allowed, and will never be welcomed. (Silence is not consent)

Waitingfordoggo · Yesterday 13:28

But just for the avoidance of doubt…

OP, you are a man. You might be a man with long hair and make-up and spinny skirts and boobs from taking oestrogen. Maybe you’ve had some genital surgery. All of that is irrelevant and you are a man. I absolutely support your right to wear whatever you want but I will never call you a woman or believe that you are a woman.

SidewaysOtter · Yesterday 13:28

MeridaBrave · Yesterday 12:50

I have bulging biceps. 💪🏻 does that make me less of a woman?

Am I woman on the days I wear a dress, heels and full makeup?

Am I not a woman on the days I'm barefaced in jeans, a t-shirt and trainers?

I'm a woman whatever I wear or however I present. Which also means that a man wearing women's clothes or 'presenting femme' doesn't make him a woman. "Woman" is not a costume or a look, it's biological reality.

Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces
yuaoa · Yesterday 13:28

Trans women are male. Obviously they shouldn’t have access to women’s space.

Princejoffyjaffur · Yesterday 13:28

Zun · Yesterday 12:36

Aw diddums you’ve never been told no before have you?

projecting much?

takealettermsjones · Yesterday 13:30

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:50

I appreciate the question. I am a trans-fem non-binary person. This means, while I was AMAB, I mostly see myself aligned with femininity. However, I do not see myself within the binary of gender, so that's why I use those pronouns

Well, you don't use those pronouns about yourself, do you? What you actually mean is those are the pronouns you demand everyone else use when talking about you, and therein lies the problem with the trans 'movement' as it is today: the attempts to compel everyone else to believe the same beliefs.

BeckyAMumsnet · Yesterday 13:30

Hello @user08101988 we're moving your thread to the sex and gender board. LGBT children is primarily a supportive place for parents rather than somewhere to debate ideology.

Magpiecomplex · Yesterday 13:31

PauliesWalnuts · Yesterday 13:22

... and I've got PCOS so I've definitely got the beard. I am a woman and have XX chromosomes.

Same.
Biceps? Tick
Beard? Tick (on days I can't find the tweezers)
XX chromosomes? Tick
Actual PhD in actual biology? Tick
Woman? Tick.

DialSquare · Yesterday 13:31

Oovavuuuu · Yesterday 13:20

Mumsnet is just an echo chamber for the anti trans movement. It's not how most people feel in real life. I wouldn't even bother debating here as people aren't interested in different view points.

Yeah, of course that’s why you won’t bother debating 🙄

Hoardasurass · Yesterday 13:32

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:50

I appreciate the question. I am a trans-fem non-binary person. This means, while I was AMAB, I mostly see myself aligned with femininity. However, I do not see myself within the binary of gender, so that's why I use those pronouns

So a trans identifying male.
No you aren't any kind of women and don't belong in any womens single sex spaces, facilities or groups regardless of how you identify

bridgetreilly · Yesterday 13:32

You can see yourself as aligned with Saturn if you want, but it still wouldn’t make you a planet. Women are women. Transwomen are men. Or if you prefer, fake women. Not!women. Vegan women, like how vegan leather is not leather. Trans is not just an adjective, it’s an adjective which completely changes the meaning of the noun to which it is attached. And no matter what evidence you bring, the law is clear. You aren’t a woman. But that’s fine. You can still wear a dress and call yourself Jane. You just can’t come into the spaces that women fought hard for years to have, where we are protected and free. Because you aren’t a women.

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 13:33

The answer is no they are not real women.

So no they shouldn't be allowed into women's spaces

We were total no debate years ago. We did that debate and the debate clearly came to the conclusion that there are many legitimate reasons why transwomen are men. And that's ok. But don't be a twat and use women to validate your identity.

CassOle · Yesterday 13:33

The universal biological definition of sex is due to gamete type:
small, mobile gametes = male
large, immobile gametes = female.

For a sex change to occur, the following needs to happen:
An organism (in this case, a male human being) that has a body that has developed to produce small gametes, goes through a natural metamorphosis (so no exogenous hormones needed, or surgery). Then, the same organism (so the very same human being, but now female) can no longer produce small gametes, but can now produce large gametes.

If that actually happens, I will concede that user08101988 has changed sex. Until then, he is a bloke and should not be in female single sex spaces. He can use unisex ones if he is uncomfortable in male single sex spaces.

BeanQuisine · Yesterday 13:33

The obvious fact that others have pointed out - so obvious it shouldn't need pointing out - is that you can't be a "transwoman" unless you're a man.

It's essential to the definition of the term. Women cannot be "transwomen", only men. Any woman claiming to be a "transwoman" would be laughed at, or very ironically, condemned for "identity theft".

So yes, Transwomen are Obviously Real Men and Should Not Have Access to Women's Spaces.

UprightCitizensBrigade · Yesterday 13:34

user08101988 · Yesterday 12:42

So, trans women are women. I have the evidence too. This is a study done by the NIH looking into the neuro-anatomy of 24 trans women pre-hormone therapy. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

There are also currently a total of 92 sex offenders who are trans women (this is 0.000135% of the population btw).

CNN did research into bathroom issues in the USA comparing states with inclusive laws vs. bans for trans women. They called various police departments and asked for crime data to do with trans people in the bathrooms that correspond with their perceived gender in both types of state. The conclusion showed that the inclusive law states had significantly lower instances of sexual assault in bathrooms as a whole. In the inclusive law states, many police departments reported 0 crimes.

Hey @user08101988 I have read the study- very interesting. It isn't quite the 'eureka' moment you are hoping for though...

"The Brain Sex of transgender women was estimated as 0.75 ± 0.39, thus hovering between cisgender men and cisgender women, albeit closer to cisgender men (see also Figure 1). The follow-up post hoc tests revealed that transgender women were significantly more female than cisgender men (Cohen’s d = 0.64, t(46) = 2.20, p = 0.016), but significantly less female than cisgender women (Cohen’s d = 1.87, t(46) = 6.48, p < 0.001)"

So it seems the transgender women who were tested have brain sex of somewhere in between Male and Female but closer to male.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity - PMC

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or .....

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/#jcm-11-01582-f001

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 13:35

Women are allowed to tell men to fuck off if they want.

They don't have to do what men tell them. They don't have to bow down to what a man says.

Women definite themselves. Men can't change sex even if they want to.

Samysungy · Yesterday 13:35

How does a woman transition into a transwoman? Asking for a friend...

TinyTeacher · Yesterday 13:35

READ the study that had been linked.

Theres a very clear diagram of the results ig you scroll down a bit. Transwomen's brains are shifted SLIGHTLY towards characteristics comon in female brains. But only very slightly - their characteristics are identifiably male, with a large overlap with the typical male distribution and almost none with the typical female distibution.

I.e. the opposite of what has been said by OP! Transwomen have male brains. No more "feminine" than many normal males, and not remotely like an actual female brain.

Transwomen do NOT have female brains. They do NOT have female bodies. If you believe that it matters that female-only spaces exist, then transwomen don't qualify. And if you think it doesn't matter then surely it is equally fine to use the men's?

aberamagold · Yesterday 13:35

nocoolnamesleft · Yesterday 13:02

SO that study shows that the brains of the trans women studied were closer (by far) to male brains than to female brains. Did you actually read it?

Even a cursory glance at Fig 1 in that study (I haven't read it all because it looks a load of twaddle) shows (completely unsurprisingly) huge overlap between 'cis men' and 'cis women'.
And the trans males are clearly a subset of the 'cis' males.

adragoncalledaudrey · Yesterday 13:35

This board is primarily for parents of LGBTQ+ children to share personal experiences and advice.

This needs repeating. ⬆️

What a shame that someone has chosen to try to make this space all about them and their agenda.

Minasama · Yesterday 13:36

I have no problem with this - what I have a problem with is the solution of mixed spaces ie men and boys being able to use women’s spaces.

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