Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces

[user08101988]

Started because a thread on Girlguiding was getting too off topic.

“I think unisex spaces are best”

Can I just roll my eyes and not respond to this for the millionth time?

I never said sex based discrimination doesn't matter?

Have you heard of the Samoan Fa'afafine? https://e-tangata.co.nz/reflections/when-did-you-first-know-you-were-a-faafafine/

Ah, soul.

Rather an important piece of legislation vis a vis access to single sex spaces, as I and several others have said. Why do you think they decided that “trans women” were men at all?

And how would a random woman perceive these two people? You know their medical history, but other people don't - they'll just see them both as male. There is no reason why one should get access to female spaces and the other not. If we are going to say, "Men who have had genital surgery can use female spaces but others can't," how on earth will we police that? Are we going to ask for their medical details?

It just doesn't work.

Not even if they bake really well?

what is a female brain and how does someone perform a scan to see if you have one?

We shouldn't have needed it, but apparently we did.

Is it worth anyone’s while engaging with this nonsense? For the OP, and others like him, it’s just a way of irritating women and wasting our time. That’s an achievement in their limited little minds. They have a limitless supply of word salad. They can keep this bullshit up till we all fall asleep.

Not even.

Turn it upside down and blow on its groin.

We really are getting the Greatest Hits of 2018, by Sunny and the BeKinders!

I didn't say it wasn't an important piece of legislation.

If women didn’t need protection of various sorts maybe it wouldn’t matter so much. Obviously trans women still wouldn’t ever be women because humans can’t change sex but maybe there wouldn’t be situations where it mattered, vitally. If there were no rape survivors we wouldn’t need single sex services for them. etc.
Its absolutely relevant.

But the Supreme Court didn't adjudicate on this.

Hens need protection, which will sometimes require the existence of a hen house for hens only to protect them from foxes. It's totally irrelevant to this what a hen is and if a fox says it has a hen brain then it's a hen and should be allowed into the hen house.

I think you need to read @Keeptoiletssafe many informative, thoughtful and extremely well researched posts to understand why single occupancy unisex toilets are unsafe. And why can’t the tiny percentage of trans identifying males just use the disabled loos?

you didn’t read my whole comment. Please don’t cherry pick. Because women are allowed single sex spaces. Under the legislation. Why doesn’t that matter? Why is it just trans identifying individuals that you are concerned with? I am entitled to a single sex space. I don’t want a man in my counselling group. I don’t care how he identifies, I’m entitled to have a single sex rape counselling space and I wish to avail of that right. Because I can’t be in a room talking about my rape with a man there. I can’t even be on the other side of a door at the loo where there’s a man I don’t know on the other side.

why does that not matter?

Then what exactly is your point? They aren’t allowed in women’s spaces because they are men, and not women. The end.

I just saw the first few pages of those wanting men and women to mix giving a ‘solution’ of unisex toilets. Apologies if the conversation has moved on.

So, trans women are women. I have the evidence too. This is a study done by the NIH looking into the neuro-anatomy of 24 trans women pre-hormone therapy. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

Er...that study does NOT conclude that Transwomen are women. I have read it. It acknowledges that in terms of DNA, physiology, hormones etc the Transwomen were male. .

"We employed a recently developed multivariate classifier that yields a continuous probabilistic (rather than a binary) estimate for brains to be male or female. "

Probablistic: likelihoods rather than certainties. And on a spectrum

"The follow-up post hoc tests revealed that transgender women were significantly more female than cisgender men (Cohen’s d = 0.64, t(46) = 2.20, p = 0.016), but significantly less female than cisgender women (Cohen’s d = 1.87, t(46) = 6.48, p < 0.001)."

And the word 'significantly' is relative - the actual amounts are tiny.

Study size: 24 each of Transwomen, women and men.

Women have a huge range of feelings about their own identity as women - very 'feminine' to not 'feminine' at all. The study also acknowledges that upbringing , environment and sexuality all affect these measures too - and they have not allowed for that.

So, we are back with Transwomen are Transwomen - and good for them! Be a Transwoman and live your life. Just be aware of the circumstances in which sex matters more than gender. Sport, intimate spaces etc.

Me too. I mean I'm starting from a position of thinking it's rubbish, but would like to hear the experience and the arguments.

My entirely scientific rational father remains convinced he interacted with a ghost at one point, something we'd all laugh out of town if he weren't the man he is.

So I'm open to hearing about souls, even if it will take a lot to convince me.

Thank you for engaging with the actual conversation , I disagree with you but aLeo appreciate that.