Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces

[user08101988]

Started because a thread on Girlguiding was getting too off topic.

But if is black and white if you care about women and about sexism.

The only reason to think it's reasonable to treat trans "women" as if they might be somehow really closer to being women than other men are at all, in any circumstance, whether we are talking about including them in rape crisis support with the most vulnerable of vulnerable women, or just letting them join the odd woman-only book club, is just because these male people say they "think" or "feel" like women.

That's all. There's no real, observable similarities underneath the belief. It's all just them and their self image.

The only place they are more like women than other men are is in their own head.

So if society then accomodates this, what society is really saying to women is "yes, the way some men think means they really geniunely are more like women, because they think and feel like women"

That some ways of thinking and feeling belong to women and others to men. It's the same old sexism that once upon a time told us women can't do maths and men can't clean toilets.

So, unless that is the world you want to sign up for, and I sure as hell do not, it is indeed black and white that nothing a man thinks and feels makes him any more like "a woman" than any other man is, and therefore nothing a man thinks or feels should give him access to women-only provisions that other men do not have.

It would be terrible if they really are trapped in the wrong body

Very few want the surgery, most want to keep their "ladydicks" and insert them into women's spaces 🤷‍♂️

@user08101988 I am thinking of asking MN to change the title of your post to

Trans women are Real men who have full access to Men’s Spaces so don’t need to access Women’s Spaces.

Is that OK?

I'm definitely trapped in the wrong body. I have the brain of Claudia Schiffer

But if they have the surgeries and wish to live and be accepted as the opposite sex, what is wrong with that, can't we just accept it?

Sure, you can accept it - but it needs to be seen as the courtesy it is, not as something that is due to trans people. It must not be forced on people, and trans people need to accept that people must remain free to choose to extend that courtesy or not.

Should I be booking toddler dc into Jurassic park not nursery as he’s currently charging about in a dinosaur suit roaring at us?

Only if his stomping is up to scratch. It takes some perfecting.

It's almost like the Supreme Court judgment didn't deal with the issuing of 'passing' [spoiler: very few actually pass] transmen. 🙄🤔

Yes, it's probably better if you avoid it. You might read something that challenges your views or actually makes you think.

Can you define women without:

Using the word women
Relying on regressive stereotypes
Excluding any women

Good to see 17 pages of Trans women are men. The world has come to its senses.

No they are not

Haven't rtft, so apologies if this has already been asked.
OP, in a hundred years if an archeologist looks at your bones, what will they observe your sex as being?

I’m not your ‘cis’. I’m a woman, that’s it.

Probably in the real world many people are happy to view this on a situational basis - they don't much care about pronouns, will probably turn a blind eye to trans women discreetly using women's facilities in a way that doesn't seem dangerous etc.

But it was trans activism that insisted there were no circumstances in which female people could have separate spaces and that we all had to believe nonsense like "men can get pregnant".

So I don't have much sympathy anymore. That was the choice that was made and until the trans community becomes interested in compromise then things will only get worse.

Or, put another way, it’s the pro-reality movement. Most of us don’t care that you’re trans - present yourself however you like. We just don’t want you in our single sex spaces, taking our team and employment places, or removing our hard fought for rights to dignity and privacy. You think you represent us, but you really don’t.

So for those of us whose first language is English... a bloke

And also to any passer by in the street, regardless of mother tongue.

Don't you think everyone wants to be decent and kind?

There's absolutely no doubt, whatsoever, that the women here totally realise that some men who identify as women are indeed vulnerable. Not doing it because of a fetish. There are quite a few reasons why men identify as women.

Some of them entirely understandable.

But you can't be a feminist if you don't prioritise women. That's what it is.

And you can't support gay people, if you believe in transgender ideology. Because it erases sex, and therefore sexual orientation.

That doesn't mean you don't want to be kind to your friends, of course.

But we are all governed by laws and protections. Which have to work. They can't only work every now and then, or just for your friends, or for people who are nice.

There's absolutely no doubt, that if any man can access the private spaces of women and girls, it will be grabbed hold of by every predator in the land. Why wouldn't they??

And there is equally no doubt that there are some women who will self exclude if their private space includes a man, even your lovely friends.

I believe the reason you get upset is because you want a solution that doesn't exist.

You want women to open their arms to your friends so they don't feel upset and humiliated, whilst at the same time not caring that their only role is to be supportive to men.

Of course, a mixed sex space sounds like the answer to you. But believe me, there are many, many men who utterly refuse to countenance them. And equally just as many women.

So again, it's not a solution.

There is no solution that will satisfy men who want to come into women's spaces, and women who don't want them.

Sometimes it's just that, a zero sum game. Women want their spaces and men want them too. Someone has to lose.

Guess which one a feminist would choose?

A man that was AFAB but is transmasc will now have to use the women’s bathroom. Is that a good thing?

In general I think it is good for trans men to have access to female provision, given that they are female.

It will certainly be more difficult to access single sex services if you have taken steps to make your voice and appearance resemble the opposite sex, but the law says that you should not be left without any provision.

What’s stopping a cisgendered male from pretending to be trans to use the women’s bathroom?.

I would be grateful if you could explain how one judges somebody else's gender. If it's not possible to exclude on the basis of sex, on what grounds would a man be asked to leave the women's toilet? On what basis does he not have a right to be there?

Ridiculous

No they’re not. They are trans identifying biological males.

Not "wrong body".

Right body (because it's the only one we can have) in the wrong sex. Hence the cosmetic changes.

I am going to have potatoes salad and pizza from the shop for tea.

How do you feel about the fact that TIM who insist that they are women, demand that they are accorded the legal rights that women have, steal the language that we use about ourselves and our biology as women, are forcing us to live a lie about who they “believe” they are.

If TIM are so confused ( I am choosing my words carefully ) that they think they are women then that is their issue to get help with, I don’t see why we as women should be expected to deny the science, deny the proof of our own eyes, deny our instincts, lie to our children and pretend that the TIM fantasy is reality even though we know that this only adds to the sexual excitement many are enjoying by our compliance and acceptance of their paraphilia?