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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces

1000 replies

user08101988 · 27/07/2026 12:32

Started because a thread on Girlguiding was getting too off topic.

OP posts:
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18
TheKeatingFive · 27/07/2026 14:59

There is a clear, biological definition of woman that has existed since the dawn of time.

I have zero interest in overturning that definition to please some men.

Hope that clears it up for you OP.

Dobeebeedah · 27/07/2026 15:00

A tiny number of babies are born with genitalia that are either indistinct or multiple. The Surgeons do their best with what they are faced with. These children can be either and have to grow up and live their life as best they can.

If you are born with an undeniable penis OR vagina then you are male or female. No one can or should change that and you live your life accordingly.

I do not wish/want to associate with a male in a place that is solely for the use of females and who have had operations or just identify that way, i.e. changing rooms for women's underwear, toilets, swimming pools, prisons, hospital wards etc.

People who have a difference with their sexuality and have a single sex partnerships or sexual relations I have no problem with. That is their way of life and should use the gendered areas according to their birth.

In Europe there are many non-gendered areas (some toilets, changing rooms etc) and I have no problems with.

ConcernedOfSussex · 27/07/2026 15:01

user08101988 · 27/07/2026 12:43

My pronouns are she/they, but I won't because I now realise how stupid that would be

Anyone who feels the need to state their pronouns (biologically and grammatically incorrect as it happens) needs therapy imho

GrumpyPanda · 27/07/2026 15:01

Gymnopedie · 27/07/2026 13:12

When a transwoman has XX chromosomes I'll grant that she's a woman. If the chromosomes are XY I won't.

Nah. Swyer women are XY and they're women. This bloke ain't.

Seethlaw · 27/07/2026 15:01

EleanorMc67 · 27/07/2026 14:52

No, I appreciate them - & didn't realise that you were a trans man either. So I am interested in your opinions too! I am a middle-aged woman (cis, even though it's hated here, it's easily understood) who just wants to be a decent kind considerate human being - I'm a feminist & I'm also pro LGBTQ+ rights & believe both things can be true!! And I don't think my opinions are that unusual - just that they are on MN it would seem?

I don't usually comment on this board, as I really really hate it & it makes me upset. So much hate & vitriol & so little time & patience for nuance & discussion. I will have a think & reply properly when I have a chance!!

I don't think my opinions are that unusual - just that they are on MN it would seem?

And on TRA boards, where arguing that only people who are fully medically transitioned can be called trans would get you crucified in my experience.

So much hate & vitriol & so little time & patience for nuance & discussion.

I know what you mean but... There's only so much patience one can have when one is constantly being called a bigot or an idiot, as we usually are...

I will have a think & reply properly when I have a chance!!

Sure :) !

heathspeedwell · 27/07/2026 15:01

Might be a good time to repeat that 62% of the transwomen in prison in England and Wales have convictions for rape or sexual assault, compared to just 16% of men and 3% of women.

Hardly surprising that the vast majority of women want single sex spaces.

"Almost two thirds of transgender prisoners who identify as female are convicted sex offenders, new data has revealed.
Out of the 245 trans women inmates who are legally recognised as male, a total of 151, or 62 per cent, had committed at least one sexual offence."

Almost two thirds of trans women prisoners are sex offenders

(Edited to remove strange link)

Weirdwonderfully · 27/07/2026 15:01

Nope, never not while they have willys and can harm women they are not the same.

BackToLurk · 27/07/2026 15:02

'Trans' isn't an adjective, it's a prefix.

Boiledbeetle · 27/07/2026 15:02

EleanorMc67 · 27/07/2026 14:52

No, I appreciate them - & didn't realise that you were a trans man either. So I am interested in your opinions too! I am a middle-aged woman (cis, even though it's hated here, it's easily understood) who just wants to be a decent kind considerate human being - I'm a feminist & I'm also pro LGBTQ+ rights & believe both things can be true!! And I don't think my opinions are that unusual - just that they are on MN it would seem?

I don't usually comment on this board, as I really really hate it & it makes me upset. So much hate & vitriol & so little time & patience for nuance & discussion. I will have a think & reply properly when I have a chance!!

I'm a feminist & I'm also pro LGBTQ+ rights & believe both things can be true!! And I don't think my opinions are that unusual - just that they are on MN it would seem?

Do you assume the women on the FWR board are anti LGBTQ+ rights then? If so I think you have misunderstood the position of the vast majority on here.

I'm pro rights for everyone, including those people after the B.

What I am against is a man being able to say "I am a woman" and immediately having the right to access things that are for women only - our words and our spaces for starters.

Luckily in this country the law agrees with me.

Weirdwonderfully · 27/07/2026 15:03

user08101988 · 27/07/2026 12:42

So, trans women are women. I have the evidence too. This is a study done by the NIH looking into the neuro-anatomy of 24 trans women pre-hormone therapy. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

There are also currently a total of 92 sex offenders who are trans women (this is 0.000135% of the population btw).

CNN did research into bathroom issues in the USA comparing states with inclusive laws vs. bans for trans women. They called various police departments and asked for crime data to do with trans people in the bathrooms that correspond with their perceived gender in both types of state. The conclusion showed that the inclusive law states had significantly lower instances of sexual assault in bathrooms as a whole. In the inclusive law states, many police departments reported 0 crimes.

My answer to this is there’s only 92 but how many have gone unreported or uncharged? You’ll never truly know the extent of it and I for one am grateful I’ve never came across a trans in a ladies bathroom especially not while I’ve got young daughters

Marmalademorning · 27/07/2026 15:03

Sorry OP but I feel you are rage baiting.

BackToLurk · 27/07/2026 15:04

@EleanorMc67
"I am a middle-aged woman (cis, even though it's hated here, it's easily understood)"

Great, as it's 'easily understood' you can easily outline what you mean by 'cis'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2026 15:04

EleanorMc67 · 27/07/2026 14:45

Statistically speaking, I think a woman finding herself in women's toilets with a trans woman also present (pre or post law change) is very uncommon - as trans men & women are a tiny % of the population.

And the likelihood of that trans woman "confronting" her even less likely - why do you assume all trans women are confrontational? The trans women I know want to just have a pee & not be hassled - in whatever space they're permitted to use.

You also seem to assume that I think the solution is to revert to what was previously the law. I don't think I do - I think unisex spaces are best. Avoids confusion, confrontation, humiliation, & allows dignity to be preserved for all.

(The Sandy Peggie case is something of an anomaly, & both parties said/did things I disliked/felt uncomfortable with.)

Why is what Sandie Peggie did or said relevant to whether she should have a female only changing room? It’s not an anomaly. See the successful Darlington nurses (very similar) and the recent win against NHS England.

Weirdwonderfully · 27/07/2026 15:07

Marmalademorning · 27/07/2026 15:03

Sorry OP but I feel you are rage baiting.

This

NotAtMyAge · 27/07/2026 15:08

user08101988 · 27/07/2026 12:50

I appreciate the question. I am a trans-fem non-binary person. This means, while I was AMAB, I mostly see myself aligned with femininity. However, I do not see myself within the binary of gender, so that's why I use those pronouns

In plain English you are a mostly feminine-presenting man saying "Look at meeee". Feminine is just gender stereotyping, which many women really don't have much time for, certainly not this one.

We are sexed bodies. All the rest is personality.

Wishesandhorses · 27/07/2026 15:08

just wants to be a decent kind considerate human being - I'm a feminist & I'm also pro LGBTQ+ rights

I'm afraid from your posts, you're kidding yourself.

Your decency, kindness and consideration at this point is exclusive to men with gender identities.

You've dismissed out of hand all women - which includes a vast number of vulnerable groups you don't seem to have thought of or extended all this lovely decency to - which would severely mess with your credibility as a feminist. And the kindness and considerate part too.

The legal protections of women with trans identities were also retained and protected by the SCJ confirming the law.

And you're also dismissing the lesbian and gay people who also were forced to join in with the court action to the point of the SCJ because their legal protections and rights were also being trampled and causing harms. Which would severely mess with your credibility about caring about LGB rights when you use that acronymn.

I would think Male Rights Activist is probably nearer the views being expressed.

ConcernedOfSussex · 27/07/2026 15:09

@user08101988 You're a bloke, no amount of wigs, hormones, surgery or make up will change that. I suggest you come to terms with it. The worm has turned and biological women are not putting up with your shit anymore.

Weirdwonderfully · 27/07/2026 15:10

user08101988 · 27/07/2026 12:53

They are biological females due to this study: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

Also, if you think stripping down what women are to their body parts, that's what feminists fought against for years. Now women can get jobs, start bank accounts, own property, and so many more things. This is a very regressive view of what women are.

They are not biological females they weren’t born female

toottoot3 · 27/07/2026 15:10

I have no problem with anyone dressing and living as they please, I respect those who transition and believe they deserve safety.
I also believe women deserve safe spaces, especially in vulnerable/cultural situations.

I believe men need to look at their attitudes and violence which is why trans people feel threatened/unsafe in male toilets, women don't want any male in their safe spaces, it doesn't matter if they are "safe",
some women will stop using gyms/toilets/groups as their religion/partner might not agree.
We need a third space, where trans men/women can be themselves and feel comfortable too, I know some trans women who don't use public toilets as scared of reactions, that too is unfair.
Men don't want trans women/women in their toilets/clubs and an agreed thought is they are too dangerous to be near, they can't contain themselves not to attack or rape anyone in a skirt. This needs dealt with.
Women's toilets are generally also disabled, children and baby changing, how many more categories should we absorb into our 1-2 toilet stalls in most places?
Men love to tell women who oppose trans womens in toilets to get over themselves as they find it easier to attack women then tell other men their threatening/violent/rapey behaviour is awful and brings down every man with them.
Men are left with all male toilets as they are so dangerous, trans people generally aren't accepted at all male clubs, men generally are higher up in companies, men are gaining more and more male only spaces and attacking women for pushing back.

Unfortunately I do think for all the hard times trans people have to go through, outcome is they aren't safe in gents toilets, women fear for their safety in the ladies, a new set of toilets for those who don't care who comes in should happen, same as regulations as disabled toilets, everyones needs being cared for rather than, uuuggh men can't handle, so default is woman absorb that problem to save men feeling uncomfortable, I think that's really the basis of most women's issues with trans women, it's not anything to do with the actual person, it's the assumption that women should lose out/be vulnerable/go without, to accomodation mens violence and their lack of dealing with that.

TheKeatingFive · 27/07/2026 15:12

People need to park being 'kind'. It only ever seems to go one way. And there always seems to be far more pressure on women to be kind to men than the other way round.

Let's focus on being Just.

That's much more rigorous.

EleanorMc67 · 27/07/2026 15:12

Wishesandhorses · 27/07/2026 14:53

I am also a trans ally with several trans friends (all MtF), & believe that the change in law regarding toilet access is wrong & humiliating & had not been thought through properly

I certainly don't think you have thought it through, I agree.

Women's single sex spaces are not there to make men - of any gender and at any stage of 'transition' however you see that - feel dignified, or comfortable, or anything else at all. They are not there for men in any way, that is not their purpose.

Are you a believer in inclusion? Diversity? Religious tolerance? Disabled access?

If you let men into women's spaces so they don't feel 'humiliated' you have to bar access for the women who cannot use mixed sex spaces, often because they are women of minority cultures, faiths, disability, trauma, survivors of VAWG. Is it right that those women should have nothing and be denied all public access? Should those women be excluded from women's single sex spaces and facilities so that no men feel humiliated?

Seriously?

And that's already based on that anyone who is worried about men feeling humiliated if they're not allowed into women's spaces has already dismissed the humiliation and basic fundamental needs of all the women in that space or who ever will use that space as secondary to the needs of those men.

There's a term for seeing men as always higher priority than women on a sexed basis. And you cannot argue that you're not doing this: you don't care in the least about all the groups of women affected, only this one group whose defining aspect is being biologically male.

The SCJ thankfully confirmed the law that protects the rights of women (and incidentally of gay people who also need their legal protections on sexed basis to remain protected), against those who will always put men first and see women as so wholly unimportant and unequal. And who would see women and gay legal protections removed where these are inconvenient to men, on the grounds that women and gay people are lesser humans than these men.

The guidance based on the SCJ's confirmation of existing law is that there should be provision for everybody. I'm afraid that does include women and gay people too. Equally to these men. You can provide an additional space that respects someone's choices and feelings about their identity and body that means they do not have to choose between their own sexed space and nothing. Then no one is left without a space.

But if you let men into women's spaces because awww bless, humiliating for them otherwise - what exactly are you going to do with those women who cannot use mixed sex spaces? And who because of the issues and exclusions and discriminations and harms and in some cases serious injury fought through the courts for years and years to say they needed single sex spaces even if men find this emotionally distressing to permit them.

What is your solution to this?

I suspect I know, and it's merely to let women carry on suffering and shut up about it, because they are after all only women.

Edited

I did not expand what I said to refer to ALL single-sex spaces - I merely expressed my opinion on one - toilet access. And I think that unisex cubicles are the most sensible solution.

Do I think that trans women (or men) should automatically be able to share open changing rooms at gyms/swimming pools/clothes shops with cis women? No, I think that that it's best to always have at least some cubicles. But that's because I dislike places that only have open changing facilities, for anyone, anywhere. They're uncomfortable to use for many people.

Do I think that trans women should automatically be allowed access to, say, group therapy for survivors of sexual abuse? No, their experience is uncommon - statistically, as they're a very very small part of the population - so they are better suited to individual therapy. As would some women - group therapy doesn't suit everyone.

Do I think that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sports? No, in the vast majority of cases, as the genetic advantage is too great (there may be some exceptions where the "transition" has been from birth or as a young child due to genetic anomalies etc, but that's even rarer & should be on a case-by-case basis).

I don't have the answers. I'm not a philosopher. Or a scientist. Or a law maker. But those are the people who should be debating the nuances of it all, as IMO it's not as black & white as people like to present it on MN.

SoBoredOfSelfDoubtHowToGetOut · 27/07/2026 15:13

No and no.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/07/2026 15:13

nietzscheanvibe · 27/07/2026 13:02

Never mind the 'neuro-anatomy', what about the actual anatomy? You know, the erm, penis? Even if your neuro-anatomy makes you feel like what you think a woman feels like, your penis makes you a man.

It's hilarious isn't it?

"ooooh these teeny tiny siggestive brain differences are what really makes someone a woman or a man!"

Um - great big fucking physical differences aren't relevent then? Y'know, the ones that meant people like use were classified as property not people, were denied education, get raped and sold into abuse, were banned from professions and earning our own money, etc etc etc - oh yeah, and have our lives upended for years if we reproduce as opposed to a quick squirt and hang around if we feel like it..... all that isn't significant but teeny tiny brain differences, those matter?

You know, TRActivist sexism is bad enough, but these days I'm almost more insulted by the sheer stupidity of their thinking.

TheKeatingFive · 27/07/2026 15:13

Weirdwonderfully · 27/07/2026 15:10

They are not biological females they weren’t born female

They didn't become female either.

Humans can't change sex. Once male, always male.

Wishesandhorses · 27/07/2026 15:14

Thankfully all this is academic anyway - beyond proving yet again why women and gay people desperately need legal protections these days more than they ever did.

The Supreme Court went into all this. With a toothcomb. Based on years of a grand experiment of law being misunderstood to let men use women and gay spaces, and this not working for women and gay people in a very big way.

The highest court in the land and those legal minds checked it all out, and will know better than anyone here, and were very clear that while dignified additional provision should be created for those who prefer it, women and gay people's rights are equal and must also be respected in provisions. And to do this, it must involve saying no to men sometimes.

End of.

If you really dislike women and gay equality then you do you, but I question seriously why you might want to come and talk about your views on a women's rights forum.

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