Trans Women are Real Women and Should Have Access to Women's Spaces

[user08101988]

Started because a thread on Girlguiding was getting too off topic.

He's not as long winded and pompous as the guy who keeps coming in under new usernames (usually female ones) trying unsuccessfully to sound clever, so I don't think it's him. I've got an idea of which other one he might be but I can't be sure... a lot of them are low effort recyclers who just want to waste time with the same old debunked shite.

For what it's worth, there was no inference meant in my questions. They were just that: questions, to better understand where you come from, what the logic underlying your opinion is, if that's okay with you.

I think "trans woman" is a descriptor in itself - they wish to move from living their life as a man to living as a woman.

What would 'living as a woman" entail, though? Would I be right in assuming it's about conforming to sex-based stereotypes, such as clothes and make-up and such? But in that case, what does it say about women who don't conform to those stereotypes? Are they not really women?

living for a defined period of years as the opposite sex etc before full transitioning,

That's cruel, though. Hormones and surgery help both in passing and in feeling better in one's skin, so asking someone to do without them while at the same time asking them to deal with all the problems of presenting as the opposite sex, is really harsh.

But strictly speaking I think they are choosing to be what equates outwardly as hermaphrodite, not a trans woman.

See, I was right to ask questions, because that's one argument I've never heard before :) !

Now, I see your point. By this measure, though, I'm not a trans man, but a hermaphrodite. However, phalloplasty is very risky and has abysmally poor results. Is it fair to deny me the title of trans man just because I choose to put my health over someone else's will?

Sorry for all the questions! As I said, I like to understand where people are coming from, especially when they express unusual opinions.

One of her school friends is a boy who identifies as a girl? Or the other way around? Also does this “not bothered”ness extend to all boys or just the ones who claim to be girls?

Don't be so ridiculous. Biological sex is immutable. Men cannot become women, nor women men.

TWAW is the ultimate in male privilege 💯

why do you assume all trans women are confrontational? The trans women I know want to just have a pee & not be hassled - in whatever space they're permitted to use.

If I'm in the women's toilets what about the man stood in front isn't bloody confrontational?

If you are relying on a brain scan study on a small amount of people to convince others men are woman you have lost the battle before you started.

It's obvious what a real woman is no matter what. They dont need obscure sans to prove who they are.

this is all BS.

Nobody here is 'stripping women down to their body parts' - as biological women we know what it actually means to be born female and our body parts are only a part of that. It's also the reason why biological males think that putting on a dress and lipstick makes them a woman, when actually they don't get it AT ALL. And why when trans women start telling us natal females what to think we know they are actually male, because that in itself is a male trait. Fucking mansplaining what being female is. Fuck off.

Do you think the OP was looking for a solution or just making a goady post to get a reaction? I can’t see him asking to discuss options or seek solutions. Maybe if he had them responses would be different.

No, I appreciate them - & didn't realise that you were a trans man either. So I am interested in your opinions too! I am a middle-aged woman (cis, even though it's hated here, it's easily understood) who just wants to be a decent kind considerate human being - I'm a feminist & I'm also pro LGBTQ+ rights & believe both things can be true!! And I don't think my opinions are that unusual - just that they are on MN it would seem?

I don't usually comment on this board, as I really really hate it & it makes me upset. So much hate & vitriol & so little time & patience for nuance & discussion. I will have a think & reply properly when I have a chance!!

I have updated I didn't mean it to sound like that I agree male is male female female I meant they transition to call themselves trans woman

No

You should maybe have a word with @KeepToiletsSafe to fine tune your “sensible solutions”.

I think it was because he didn't like the responses he was getting on the other thread from the women he was insulting.

I am also a trans ally with several trans friends (all MtF), & believe that the change in law regarding toilet access is wrong & humiliating & had not been thought through properly

I certainly don't think you have thought it through, I agree.

Women's single sex spaces are not there to make men - of any gender and at any stage of 'transition' however you see that - feel dignified, or comfortable, or anything else at all. They are not there for men in any way, that is not their purpose.

Are you a believer in inclusion? Diversity? Religious tolerance? Disabled access?

If you let men into women's spaces so they don't feel 'humiliated' you have to bar access for the women who cannot use mixed sex spaces, often because they are women of minority cultures, faiths, disability, trauma, survivors of VAWG. Is it right that those women should have nothing and be denied all public access? Should those women be excluded from women's single sex spaces and facilities so that no men feel humiliated?

Seriously?

And that's already based on that anyone who is worried about men feeling humiliated if they're not allowed into women's spaces has already dismissed the humiliation and basic fundamental needs of all the women in that space or who ever will use that space as secondary to the needs of those men.

There's a term for seeing men as always higher priority than women on a sexed basis. And you cannot argue that you're not doing this: you don't care in the least about all the groups of women affected, only this one group whose defining aspect is being biologically male.

The SCJ thankfully confirmed the law that protects the rights of women (and incidentally of gay people who also need their legal protections on sexed basis to remain protected), against those who will always put men first and see women as so wholly unimportant and unequal. And who would see women and gay legal protections removed where these are inconvenient to men, on the grounds that women and gay people are lesser humans than these men.

The guidance based on the SCJ's confirmation of existing law is that there should be provision for everybody. I'm afraid that does include women and gay people too. Equally to these men. You can provide an additional space that respects someone's choices and feelings about their identity and body that means they do not have to choose between their own sexed space and nothing. Then no one is left without a space.

But if you let men into women's spaces because awww bless, humiliating for them otherwise - what exactly are you going to do with those women who cannot use mixed sex spaces? And who because of the issues and exclusions and discriminations and harms and in some cases serious injury fought through the courts for years and years to say they needed single sex spaces even if men find this emotionally distressing to permit them.

What is your solution to this?

I suspect I know, and it's merely to let women carry on suffering and shut up about it, because they are after all only women.

Fair enough! Crossed wires

Done to death this subject.

Absolutely not and never will be a woman.

We both know BoredZelda wasn't saying that at all, she is allowed her opinion. Its a reasoned and sensible one,

Why do you think female people "align with femininity"?

Is that not a kind of sexist way of looking at half the human race?

Given that your body itself is binary as are almost all other human bodies (actually all human bodies are, but I accept that in some less than 0.01% of people this may not be visually obvious), your "non-binaryness" can only be referring to your mind. Why do you assume most people do see themselves as "binary" when you have no idea how they feel about themselves?

Why do you think "aligns with femininity" is a more sensible way to decide who is a woman and who is not rather than simple body sex?

If you do think the word "woman" more sensibly means "aligns with femininity" , what is the word that now means what "woman" used to, ie the half ofthe human race that is physically female?

If you do not think that workd is needed, why do you think you have the right to decide that for half of the human race, a half you do not even belong to?

Do you believe you have the moral right and omnipotent insight to tell female people whether or not the consequences of being of the female sex are important enough to have a name?

Why does your self-image and your seist beliefs about who women are get to override my own self image and my own self knowledge?

I identify as an agender person of female body. Why should I be forced to be in intimate / private spaces with a trans woman when we share neither sex nor gender?

I identify as an agender person of female body. Will sexism and sex-based abuses stop happening to me if I stop using the word "woman" for myself?

If you think women are giving up their right to congregate without men, if you think women are giving up their rights to single sex spaces because some men claim they have more important "lady feels", you are very much mistaken.

No.

Its not going to happen.
Move on.

Some Muslim and Jewish women are not permitted to be in the presence of an unrelated man without a chaperone. This forces them to stay at home because, however rare, the chance is not zero.

Since you agree that unisex spaces are best for men identifying as women then I recommend you tell your MtF friends to use them.

Unless you’re advocating for all provision to be unisex? Meaning all men can be in all spaces at any time? I can see that being problematic in changing rooms.

How could they be? Wishing away your cock and chromosomes doesn’t make you a woman. Not physiologically, experience, socialising or any other way. Which is perhaps why you’re still wanging on about it because men tend to get their own way.

But that's the point, he doesn't want solutions, the original OP wants to make mountains out of molehills (I'm sure someone will see that as a pun - its not).

Nope

I am and always have been a woman. I am not a cis woman, I am a woman. A real woman. Anyone who calls me a 'cis' woman to my face would get short shrift.

You are not a woman. You are a man who wants to be a woman, but who can't. You have my sympathy because you have chosen a difficult path, but you do not have my sex.

The Sandy Peggie case is something of an anomaly, & both parties said/did things I disliked/felt uncomfortable with

So you will only consider women worthy of a voice, of their own dignity and feelings and needs if they are sufficiently lovely and you feel comfortable with them and their story?

Good God.

There's a 19th century parish council somewhere missing you dreadfully, with a whole lot of fallen women you can stuff into workhouses all day while feeling very lovely and above them all.

I was agreeing with her