TIFs in single-sex spaces

[MiddleCyclone]

Long-time Mumsnet browser (I remember watching penis beaker go semi-viral while I was already on here and god knows how long ago that was), left for a few years after all the trans stuff got too much for me, back to ask a question.

I’m a trans man who’s been on hormones long enough to pass nearly all of the time, who finally stopped using the women’s loos a couple of years back when a young girl watched me drying my hands and yelped “Mummy there’s a boy in here!”.

If the new guidance on single-sex spaces is to be followed I, read mostly as male (well, as a man), should go back in there and keep having these interactions, and keep making women and girls uncomfortable with my presence. Surely this can’t be the ideal outcome? It feels like the legislation has completely overlooked this.

You could be asked by a service provider to use unisex facilities instead of the female ones. This was covered in the supreme court judgment

Many places don’t have unisex toilets available at the moment. Do you think we’ll see more places adding them/relabeling their toilets as unisex to get round this? The other obvious option is using the disabled/baby change single stall but I object to that as a nondisabled person (I object to disabled and baby changing facilities getting lumped together 90% of the time too, but that’s another point)

If you think that you will make women and girls uncomfortable, then use gender neutral facilities.

I've heard other TIFs mention apps that show the location of unisex toilets so maybe that's something you could look into

Another post on passing TM and toilets - they are like buses at times

@seethlaw is a TM who posts here regularly who I'm sure would be able to give you the benefit of their experience

I think you probably need to plan your day just like women with babies or toddlers in buggies do, when they need to try on clothes or get changed and can't fit everyone in one cubicle. You need to find places that have facilities to suit your needs just like everyone else does.

No, single-sex toilets are unlikely to be re-labelled as unisex. In the workplace this would be illegal and in services it opens the provider up to discrimination claims.

Unfortunately you have pursued a course that leaves you with fewer options. Women, including you, deserve the dignity and security of single sex facilities. Unfortunately you no longer appear to belong in those spaces, and can’t use them without causing others alarm.

However, while a child may have assumed you were a boy I’d be surprised if other women did. I have seen many TiFs, some of them only on video where they think they pass, bomb proof. Obviously I can’t be sure I’m not surrounded by passing TiFs in real life, as I can only spot those who don’t pass. The influencer types however, also don’t pass.

Agree with this. I can only use a disabled loo now so have to plan where I shop, where I can have a meal etc. You will have to do the same and seek out unisex loos.

If you pass then who will care? Females are not a threat to men in male only toilets.

I appreciate your concern for other females.

At least the authorities would not put you in a female prison, though, horrifyingly, they might put you on a male psychiatric ward, where you'd be in great danger: (TW - rape):
https://x.com/ProfAliceS/status/2057004208499339659.
This should not have happened.

This is a simple explainer of the law and toilets: https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/the-truth-about-toilets/#:~:text=What%20the%20Supreme%20Court's%20judgment,right%20to%20use%20opposite%2Dsex%20facilities.

There are plenty of masculine looking women without beards. No one thinks they are boys. Without the facial hair, even children aren't mistaking TIFs for men.

Some women with PMOS have facial hair, they also aren't mistaken for men.

If you are in the rarest of all group where you might actually pass, how often are you in a position where you actually need to use public toilets that you couldn't find a suitable facility?

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/the-truth-about-toilets/#unisex

Lots of useful info here @MiddleCyclone

Toilet info.

Other sources of information may be available

https://www.toiletmap.org.uk/

I thought this exact issue was covered in the SC judgement?

I suppose technically a woman who has changed her appearance so much they are mistaken for a man is allowed in female single sex spaces. But I don't imagine it's a pleasant experience for the woman who presents herself to the world as a man or the other women using the toilet.

@MiddleCyclone I hope you find a satisfactory and legal solution to your problem.

AAArgh! This was meant to say the authorities would not put you in a MALE prison

Yes this. Who cares about the guidance.

Presumably you are happy to use the men's toilets? If you truly "pass" then how will anyone ever know?

Men will not care one jot if a TIF is in their toilets, and certainly won't feel threatened.

I feel like the guidance is really concerned with TIM in female toilets as that is where problems lie. But I guess that proves your point about being overlooked by the legislation!

Yes, I suppose that a trans-identifying woman entering a male toilet or changing room does so at her own risk. This is not the case for trans-identifying men, encroaching on women.

Ah, unfortunately, no, I can't help, since I'm not in the UK, and the situation is very different in my country.

I can guess what I would do, though, if I went to the UK and passed as well as OP does.

1. I'd use a map of where to find unisex or gender-neutral toilets. That's the big one, really.
2. In case I absolutely had to use single-sex toilets, I'd... probably alternate between using the disabled loos and the gents', to be honest, depending on how I felt that day, or where I was (like, I'd be more tempted to use the gents' in a big impersonal place like an airport, for example).

As it is, I don't pass that well, so if I had to use single-sex toilets, I'd probably go into the ladies' with a big smile, and a "trans man here, born female" explanation if there was any woman seeing me in there. Bit awkward, but, well, I knew awkward situations would happen when I transitioned.

@Seethlaw what a very decent, sensible person you are

Yeah TIFs were always going to be the victims of the TIMs massive egotistical overreach.

Had they spent the last 10-15 years campaigning for third (fourth?) spaces with their huge influence, you probably wouldn't be in this predicament but sadly all that time, money and resource was wasted trying to get women to budge up the bench.

Id be livid if I was a TIF. Females still feel the effects of misogyny, however we identify.

Honestly, if you pass so well just use the mens. The risk is all on you and it affects men's rights to a SSS - I just can't find the fucks to get worked up about it.

I wonder, since the little girl said: mummy, there’s a boy in here, is it safe to say that you’re not very tall? No offence meant but all the TIFs I’ve seen are quite short and I’m curious about that significance.

Oh dear a supposed trans person referring as to their self as a made up feminist identifying transphobe term. You can’t appease this rabid lot by using their ideologies words.

Wow. What happened to if someone says they are trans believe them?

And rabid? Have you actually bothered to read the replies?

I don't think it's right to go to the gents. Whilst you aren't a rush to them in the same way men are in the ladies toilets, men are entitled to privacy and single sex spaces too.

I'd say to choose carefully or use the accessible loos personally, or be willing to explain if you go in the ladies. Just a simple 'I'm a woman, but I prefer dressing to look like a man' if its a child. Yes that's nerve wracking, but I bet so was using the gents initially.

Unfortunately if you've put sufficient effort in to presenting in a way which genuinely makes women feel at risk, then that's for you to solve, just in the same way as if you choose to wear clothes with a threatening message, or make pretty modifications to your body to make yourself look like a risk in another way. The problem is that for the last decade or two, you were fooled into believing that it's was ok for you to use the men's, and now it's not, you're in a difficult position. I get that, but I think it's also upto you to find a way that works, whilst maintaining men's rights to a single sex space.

Because "trans man" is not a made-up term, maybe? "Trans man" doesn't make any sense since OP and I are not men. "Trans-identifying female" exactly describes us.

Also, biology is not an ideology. The trans ideology, on the other hand...