TIFs in single-sex spaces

[MiddleCyclone]

Long-time Mumsnet browser (I remember watching penis beaker go semi-viral while I was already on here and god knows how long ago that was), left for a few years after all the trans stuff got too much for me, back to ask a question.

I’m a trans man who’s been on hormones long enough to pass nearly all of the time, who finally stopped using the women’s loos a couple of years back when a young girl watched me drying my hands and yelped “Mummy there’s a boy in here!”.

If the new guidance on single-sex spaces is to be followed I, read mostly as male (well, as a man), should go back in there and keep having these interactions, and keep making women and girls uncomfortable with my presence. Surely this can’t be the ideal outcome? It feels like the legislation has completely overlooked this.

Personally I think this is a faux naive TRA thread from someone who thinks men in dresses should be allowed in the ladies toilets because then transmen can go in without anyone challenging them 🤷‍♀️.

There is no safeguarding issue of any kind with a woman using women's spaces. Discomfort or surprise is not a safeguarding issue
This has a whiff of 'reframe your trauma'.

I genuinely feel for TIFs ,- I don't consider myself a TERF as I do include all females even the ones who don't want to be one in my feminism and I think they've been dealt a shitty hand by TIMs. That said, it's not appropriate for people who look like men to be in women's loos because it erodes the already flimsy 'stay out because you stand out' social contract.

As for 'men deserve SSS too!' I don't GAF - the whole self ID/trans/GI thing is nothing but one big fat mens rights movement.
If men had given a passing shit about women and said to TIMs a decade ago 'No campaign your own spaces' or even better 'No, we will ensure you are safe in the space assigned for your sex', they wouldn't have to share with TIFs now.

Suck it up boys. Get your power, influence and cash onto creating more unisex toilets.

I fir one I'm totally shocked that the OP has not returned to their poor attempt at a gotcha thread

wrong.

As a male - and all the other blokes I know - we would not want biological women in the men's loos, for a number of reasons:

• it is inappropriate
• it is a safeguarding risk for the men as well - if an allegation is made, and they had been the only other person in there, it might be difficult to disprove
• blokes using urinals are in a partial state of undress - young boys often more so than others - no bloke who is partially undressed and using the loos wants a woman in there with them
• etc.

It might be that the individual in question believes that they 'pass' but it is pretty easy to spot when someone has an adam's apple or not / to see different hips / to see different walk patterns... the reality is that most don't - so yes it would make men using their loos uncomfortable...

In the same way that a bloke entering the gents dressed in high heels and a skirt, pearls and a wig is not going to make anyone believe that they are anything other than a man dressed up... they may well get comments, but they won't be rejected as they are men...

so, as a woman the OP needs to use the women's facilities - if there is comment then it is up to her to explain that she is still a woman (so should / may / must) use those facilities, but also as appropriate explain why she looks as she does...

and yes, I appreciate that there shouldn't be comment, but we live in a world where the normalised stereotype is expected and anything else is commented on - so while I support any individual's right to dress as they wish / to grow any body hair they wish / etc. any individual choosing to step outside the norm must accept that sometimes there will be comment...

ultimately the OP is a woman so must use women's facilities - and the legal position is just that. The guidance goes a bit further in suggesting that where possible alternatives are offered - but the core law is - women into their loos / men into their's.

I genuinely feel for TIFs ,- I don't consider myself a TERF as I do include all females even the ones who don't want to be one in my feminism and I think they've been dealt a shitty hand by TIMs.

What makes you believe that TERFs don't include all females including the ones who identify as men. TERFs should really have been called MERFs because its the men they are excluding

Spannasurus, just because I only talked about my personal feminist beliefs doesn't mean I don't know many, many other feminists feel the same.

I'm not the only MERF in the village.

When you said you didn't call yourself a TERF because you include all females did you mean

a) you think people that call themselves TERFs exclude trans identified females (which is what I assumed from your post)

Or

b) you don't use TERF because it suggests all trans people are excluded which isn't an accurate description of TERF views

I know you are and you always come across as respectful I mean no offense to you at all.

I think the OP is doing the faux innocent thing of what about the poor TM they just want to live as a man blah blah blah. My point is well ok go and live as a man but do you want society to treat you as a man in all circumstances?

If you pass, just go in the men’s. Women are not a threat to men in the same way men are to women. Men won’t give you a second glance if you genuinely look male so it’s unlikely to cause any issues.

B.

Edit to add:
I mean, TERF is used by nobheads as shorthand for any GC woman isn't it? But it's no more accurate than any other lazy stereotype.

@MarieDeGournay I don’t fully agree with you there.

Access needs might also be location dependant. So a large shopping centre that has family toilets means parents don’t need to use the accessible one. When the baby change is in the accessible toilet they do.

My son is disabled, but doesn’t require the adaptations in an accessible toilet. However, he does require the use of an accessible toilet. Should he not use one because he doesn’t need grab rails?

As you say, disability is complex, individual and sometimes invisible.

Oh no, I wasn't offended at all! I knew what you meant :) I just felt like sharing the weird 180 my brain did when I read your post :D

I agree, and if a TIF has the misfortune to end up in hospital then they should be given a bed on a female ward.

Sorry if that is not what a TIF would want , but the thing is, if we start saying “Oh it’s ok for TIF to use mens toilets because men won’t care” , and “ Yes it’s fine for TIF to be put on a mens ward, no one will bother them. ” then that opens up the door for TIM to demand the same treatment, which they would.

I agree. We can't support one rule for TIFs and another for TIMs, because TIMs will use that as a wedge. Plus,this isn't just about well-balanced, confident TIFs striding manfully into the Gents. Lots of very vulnerable young women and even girls have been groomed into thinking that they are men or boys, and, as feminists, we should be ensuring that they are protected from potentially harmful situations.

No - as above
men do not want women in the men’s loos either…
May be different reasons - still the same outcome though- men in the men’s loos and women in theirs - not difficult to grasp!

This is the bed you've made for yourself.

You're not a man. You don't feel like a woman.
Youve already admitted you make other women uncomfortable now by using the toilet you're supposed to and that isn't womens fault, in this topsy turvy world they have no idea what your biological sex is. You say you 'pass' but I doubt it, Ellen Paige thinks she passes now too. All 5ft1 of her.

I'm trying to find some sympathy for you (I do have more for you than TIMs knowing most women who do this have autism and/or trauma ) but the bulk of my sympathy lies with whoever has to share a space with you and feel that confusion and fear.

Are you coming back to the thread you started @MiddleCyclone , or are you just the eleventy billionth TRA to attempt the 'transman gotcha'?

I always find these kind of posts fascinating.

It's like when children get themselves in a pickle and, even when they are really cross with mum, it's mum they go to to get them out of the pickle.

😂
I spent waaay too long trying to work this one out.

Yeah, reading that back, it doesn't read the way I say it in my head, so my fault entirely! Sorry you wasted so much time! 😄

And how would you know if the man in the ladies had a penis or a surgically created rot pocket?

And even if he has been castrated, he's still a man.

Women are not men without a cock.

No men in women's single sex spaces. No exceptions. It's the only way.

On what basis did you consider you were entitled to use men’s facilities? A female person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment remains female and should not use facilities for male people. This has always been the law. The SC only confirmed what most of us already knew.

This. Lots of people with various conditions, mental, physical, or stage of life as mentioned, need to plan ahead or be aware of the kinds of places they can or cannot go.

A lot of people are (wilfully?) missing the point. Clearly where someone's sex is known by staff such as hospital or prison, and there are only the options of male or female then they must be placed by sex. Other women can be reassured that the ward or prison is single sex by staff running it.

In public, where someone's sex isn't known to others or the service provider, passing TIFs are intimidating to women and allowing them into women's toilets poses a safeguarding issue in terms of regulating access to women's toilets. Unisex and accessible are almost always available and passing TIFs with any decency should use them, even if by law they are permitted to use the women's.

That isn't creating a different standard where TIFs are permitted into male spaces. Accessible and unisex facilities are not male toilets, are they? Realistically many passing TIFs will continue to use male toilets and there isn't a lot anyone can do about it, but that wasn't ever my argument despite repeated attempts by users here to pretend it was.

To be clear I'm not saying that young women in boy's clothes calling themselves Aiden should be banned from female toilets. I'm talking about the rare number of TIFs who pass as the opposite sex and are intimidating to women. They are the only group for whom I can see the utility of unisex facilities. But if there isn't one then they should use the disabled.

Yes, it's not ideal for disabled people but the number of such women is tiny and unlikely to pose a significant usage burden. Meanwhile, despite being few in number, their use of the female toilets could very well open up female only facilities to predatory males by normalising the presence of male appearing people there.