TIFs in single-sex spaces

[MiddleCyclone]

Long-time Mumsnet browser (I remember watching penis beaker go semi-viral while I was already on here and god knows how long ago that was), left for a few years after all the trans stuff got too much for me, back to ask a question.

I’m a trans man who’s been on hormones long enough to pass nearly all of the time, who finally stopped using the women’s loos a couple of years back when a young girl watched me drying my hands and yelped “Mummy there’s a boy in here!”.

If the new guidance on single-sex spaces is to be followed I, read mostly as male (well, as a man), should go back in there and keep having these interactions, and keep making women and girls uncomfortable with my presence. Surely this can’t be the ideal outcome? It feels like the legislation has completely overlooked this.

There seems to be a marked difference in the willingness of female born transmen to abide by the law and corrected guidance and male born trans people who are making the most enormous fuss about toilets and have zero respect for the law, the guidance or women.

Yep. It's a huge safeguarding issue to tell women to enter male spaces. And women aren't at risk from other women even if they're briefly surprised or have to question the other woman.

It boils down to accepting that reality matters. It's not complicated and pretending it is has helped get us here.

No. It doesn't. HTH.

I think you could also make a strong argument that this group is medically disabled. Even if you think it is iatrogenic, that doesn't disqualify them.

How is saying that passing TIFs should use unisex or accessible facilities the same as telling them to enter male spaces?

As I didn't say that, you're replying to the wrong person. At no point on this thread have I discussed anything except the reality that women don't belong in men's single sex spaces.

Unisex is irrelevant to anything I've posted. Clearly if spaces are unisex there's no discussion.

I have not commented at all on disability spaces.

But as you have brought it up, I won't hand over disabled spots to either women or men who want to be the opposite sex, it's up to disability advocates to decide if these people are disabled enough to meet the barrier. Not my place to decide.

It's repeatedly what you've said in response, including where people have never suggested TIFs use male spaces.

They're accessible and often include baby changing areas as well. Ideally minimal use will be for non-disabled people but some use where necessary is reasonable and this example is unlikely to have a significant impact.

If men had given a passing shit about women and said to TIMs a decade ago 'No campaign your own spaces' or even better 'No, we will ensure you are safe in the space assigned for your sex', they wouldn't have to share with TIFs now.

To be fair, nothing that 'standard' men could have done would ever have satisfied the TIMs and encouraged them to use the men's toilets. The claim that it isn't safe for them to use the men's toilets was only ever a ruse to 'justify' them forcing their way into women's facilities and making women feel unsafe in their toilets.

Just like all the claims about the number of trans people who are murdered and thus how terribly unsafe trans people are in the UK - even though the overwhelming majority of trans people who are murdered are 'sex workers' in Brazil.

Being a victim is a position of weakness; spuriously claiming victimhood is a position of great strength, and thus ripe for exploitation.

Nope. As stated I've repeatedly said women don't belong in single sex men's spaces.

And they don't. End.

It's not my place to give away disability access, so I won't do that. Feel free to advocate for it, I don't actually care either way.

Aside from the fact that men also have their right to single-sex privacy and dignity - albeit they aren't at risk from transmen - there are also practical issues for TMs themselves in using men's toilets. Those that still have periods will frequently find that there are no bins in the cubicles; and also the availability of cubicles - certainly clean ones - will be far less. Not that it's the main issue, but every time a TM goes into a men's toilet, she will also likely have to use a cubicle that stinks of (and may have clear signs of) poo as standard.

Isn't that what they want though? The male experience?

Are you saying mens toilets should have period bins? 🙄

I'm at the point now where I've lost interest in what these people want or need. I do not care. I care about womens safety. And women pretending to be men and then complaining they have nowhere safe to pee is just ridiculous, talk about creating your own problems.

To be fair, I don't think not-disabled women should be saying "Oh, they can just use the disabled toilets; there are only a few of them, it won't be a problem." Because that's exactly what was said, without consulting women, about transwomen using women's toilets.

There isn’t the safety issue, but do you not think men and boys are also entitled to their privacy and dignity?

I'm over it too tbh. I can't in all conscience say women should be in men's spaces and I won't pretend it's nuanced.

But in the end so long as men stay out of women's single sex spaces I don't really care what these women do either.

It's not an equivalence. Accessible facilities are single user at a time, female facilities are multi user. That's the same reason why a single fully enclosed unisex toilet at, say, a cafe is completely legal. I use accessible toilets and I couldn't be less bothered by a miniscule number of passing TIFs also using them if it means that women's spaces are protected.

Yes that's what you've said. Repeatedly.... In response to posts that didn't encourage women using men's spaces. Again, at this point, the 'misinterpretation' must be wilful.

Nope. I've repeatedly said women don't belong in men's spaces, no matter how much you wish this wasn't true. 😆

And repeatedly told you I'm not discussing unisex spaces since they don't matter to the only point I've repeatedly made - which is solely and only that women don't belong in men's single sex spaces.

End.

I haven't said you've stated anything else. Just that you've raised it where it's completely irrelevant to the person you were responding to and derailed the point. Over and over again.

Nope. But you do keep raising irrelevancies and banging on. Over and over again.

Decidedly odd.

So anyway women don't belong in men's single sex spaces. HTH.

I kinda agree. If some women want to grow their tash out and wear a shirt and risk going in the mens toilet (good lord, why would you want to be in there?!) then they are choosing their own danger. They are making that informed decision that as a woman, they are entering a mens space and putting themselves in danger from men.

Women having TIMs in their toilets aren't making that choice. They are trying to avoid men!

I know its complicates things and weakens the single sex argument but we all know that that argument is based on MEN BEING PREDATORS and a danger to women. "Transmen" are only endangering themselves by going in the mens toilets.

Do TM belong in mens toilets, no obviously.
Do they belong in womens toilets? Biologically yes but some of them may present male enough to make women uncomfortable and make women think that a biological male is in the womens toilet, which will cause distress.

Its utterly selfish and typical of the whole trans movement.

Non of them give a shit about anyone else as long as they are comfortable.

Well you've dug your hole now. Not safe in the mens, not wanted in the womens. Not wanted in the disabled toilets. Piss in your car in a bucket for all I care.

And I really don't give a shit how that affects your daily life. They will probably love having something else to moan about whilst the rest of us women get on in the real world.

Accidental second reply.

It's not an exact equivalence, no. But it's the same sort of presumption that one can offer a third party the use of another group's spaces without bothering to consult the group concerned.

Bad manners, basically, and an assumption that if you (man, in the case of women's toilets; or able-bodied person in this case) can't see a problem, there can't be any problems.

Yes. Here we have someone who has decided to put their wish to be different ahead of all other considerations in their life. They have now discovered that their actions have consequences (which, if they'd thought about it a bit more, they should have realised before taking all those steps to modify their body).

Now it's all got a bit difficult for them (as if this couldn't have been predicted from the outset), they go running to mumsnet to try to find someone to sort it out for them.

In their quest for individuality (me, me, me), they've forgotten that they actually have to live in society with the rest of us, and that other people have rights too. No sympathy from me.

I agree that this thread is a bit suspect, but just in case it's not.

I understand why people are saying they feel low on sympathy for these women, but the younger cohort of people sucked into gender ideology are so often vulnerable to start with, sometimes in multiple ways, and often they were groomed into this mainly by fetishistic adult men. I just feel a little saddened by some of the responses.

These TIFs are still women, and not all of them are just attention seekers. Most of them will probably be young women who are likely autistic, lesbian, attempting to escape abuse, or just escape womanhood because of the heavy weight of sexism etc.

If GI had been around in my day and I had been offered the chance to "change sex" I'd have leapt at it! I'm not religious but but for the grace of the deity of your choice, could have gone I. I've seen other women here say much the same thing.

Thankfully I'm too old to have been caught in this by a good stretch, so grew up to be a perfectly happy woman who found what I needed in healthy feminism instead of harmful gender stereotypes pushed by ideologists and dodgy men.

Thankfully the mistakes and bad choices I made, or was encouraged into by others, were relatively low on consequences, and haven't left me with the kinds of damage that happens to healthy bodies when put through the grinder of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and "gender confirming surgery".

These girls, now women, have not been as lucky as I was. I just feel mostly sad for them, they made their choices but they weren't choices made free from harmful influence, and often they were lied to by adults they should have been able to trust like parents, schools and doctors.

I agree that the young women being groomed by the middle aged fetishists and the children being transed by their transhausen by proxy parents are victims. But the OP isn't one of them. She says she's been on Mumsnet for well over a decade, so seems to have gone into this as an adult making her own decisions.

The trans community (if there really is such a thing) need to start sorting out their own problems. Not expecting a bunch of people who (had they been asked) would have warned them about the consequences before they went down this route. It's nothing to do with us anyway.

Why are we being asked for the solutions to problems they've brought on themselves, when we would have stopped them from getting into that situation in the first place if we'd been asked?