TIFs in single-sex spaces

[MiddleCyclone]

Long-time Mumsnet browser (I remember watching penis beaker go semi-viral while I was already on here and god knows how long ago that was), left for a few years after all the trans stuff got too much for me, back to ask a question.

I’m a trans man who’s been on hormones long enough to pass nearly all of the time, who finally stopped using the women’s loos a couple of years back when a young girl watched me drying my hands and yelped “Mummy there’s a boy in here!”.

If the new guidance on single-sex spaces is to be followed I, read mostly as male (well, as a man), should go back in there and keep having these interactions, and keep making women and girls uncomfortable with my presence. Surely this can’t be the ideal outcome? It feels like the legislation has completely overlooked this.

I think it was the TIF in the thread title that is causing Mash to have conniptions.

Bollocks. There was another paragraph to this. And now it's gone pooof and I can't remember what I typed

An AMA by a trans-identifying female would be very interesting, but I appreciate why you might not want to do one.

Yeah, that's what I figured too, but TIF only means "trans-identifying female", doesn't it? Or maybe "identified"? Well, either way, it's just an accurate descriptor, not some kind of slur or whatever.

I mean, I prefer to use "transman", because I prefer to put the emphasis on "man" rather than "female" (I am trans, after all :P ), but if another transman doesn't mind using "TIF", I won't raise an eyebrow.

The trans community should have looked into this and lobbied for changes and accommodations, instead of bulldozing social norms and disrespecting the law.

"The legislation has completely overlooked this" sez someone who couldn't give AF about legislation when it was safe - indeed, conferred social status - to ignore it.

Not trans but a butch lesbian who gets a lot of "Sir... ma'am... sir" out and about / gets misgendered 50% of the time - I use the female loos and have an explanation ready (though I find in the UK you're more likely to be stared at than questioned). Or I hold it, if circumstances allow.

I know my experience won't track directly to yours OP, but fwiw.

Use the men's.

My very first post/thread turned into kind of one! Feel free to resurrect it if you have questions people didn't ask then 😀

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5326486-thank-you-from-a-trans-lurker

Not saying you can't do your own, of course, OP!

men are entitled to privacy and single sex spaces too.

Yes, I agree with this. OP, I don't know what to advise, except I think there is an app you can use for mixed-sex toilets (I keep forgetting if that's the correct term?), as someone else posted.

It is unfortunate, but if activists had spent the past ten years campaigning for more mixed-sex toilets, instead of grabbing something that they had no right to, you might have had more options now.

Oh, Mash will argue that paint isn't wet until it dries! Tiresome.

If the new guidance on single-sex spaces is to be followed I, read mostly as male (well, as a man), should go back in there

You can go into the women only spaces, but no one is forcing you too. And do you want to?

You made the decisions to change your appearance, you need to deal with the consequences, and that means using unisex facilities or have to explain that you are a women if challenged in women's spaces.

Was about to say the same thing. Just bc people don't comment to you doesn't mean they don't know exactly what they're seeing. I promise you don't pass as much as you think you do.

If you do think you pass that well, go ahead and use the men's loo. I doubt anyone will complain. The reason for the women's loo is to protect women from being confronted by dangerous or devious men in closed, unmonitored spaces. But for some reason... I have a feeling youre not actually being genuine here and that you don't actually use the men's loo that often for the same reason all females avoid it. I know plenty of TIFs still use female spaces when it comes down to it.

Never seen a TIF that can pass, they all look pretty much the same with the wispy beard and voice altered by taking T. The Juno actress passes in staged photos but when you see her walking it is obvious.

Exactly! Mash is now not only policing the language of the very people Mash claims to support and calling the OP transphobic, but is also questioning whether someone who says they are trans is actually trans.

Yet at the same time accuses us women on here of being the rabid ones.

I would also say just use the men's; as a man, I certainly wouldn't care, though obvs I can't speak for other men.

We all have our crosses to bear, and I guess this is yours. I can only wish being shouted at in the public loos was the worst problem I had to fear in life.

It can be very difficult for people with disabilities-needs to be more toilets available (for everyone, yes, but it can be particularly hard if you have certain disabilities).
Nearly all accessible toilets are unisex and always have been (?) so I suppose you could say that similar toilets, as in unisex, could be made available to everyone. A lot of workplaces do this.
Agree baby facilities should be separate, in an ideal world with facilities to help parents feed/mix up feeds too. Yes, I get that in some places, space would make this hard.

I personally don't feel that male passing TIFs belong in female only space. They have made the choice to masculinise their body to the extent that they would be alarming to women. I think there are a few exceptions where everyone would know the individual was a woman or it was strictly necessary, such as in prison or hospital. But general female only space, no. Use a unisex, if you can get away with it use the men's or hold it.

I agree with this, men deserve their privacy too.

I don't think it's safe to be encouraging TIFs to be using male toilets either! I wouldn't want a trans identified female being encouraged to men's toilets and ending up getting hurt or assaulted because a man realised they were female.

I'm of the opinion that just because you might get away with it, doesn't mean you should do it because it doesn't stop being the wrong thing to do.
It's wrong when TRAs use this as an excuse for letting the hypothetical TIM who passes well enough to go unnoticed into female single sex spaces, it's wrong for TIFs who pass well enough to go unnoticed to use male single sex spaces too.

It seems like half feel TIFs don't belong in women's facilities and should use men's and the other half feel it's wrong for them to use the men's. As always it's women who get the short end of the stick with trans ideology, including those who 'transition' who just end up not being welcome anywhere. They are the only group for whom I can actually see the utility of unisex facilities. Let's be honest, almost none of the TIMs would actually look out of the place in the men's. Meanwhile I absolutely have seen TIFs who would be alarming and out of place in the women's.

In reality the ones who pass will keep using the men's and no one will be any the wiser. That said, I wonder what they will do these days if a passing TIF turns up to hospital and needs admitting. Single rooms are in short supply and putting her on the women's ward would make other women wary and concerned. Meanwhile she wouldn't be allowed on the men's ward because of the Supreme Court ruling. Quite a dilemma. If only people hadn't been encouraged to cosmetically alter their bodies to the point they are unrecognisable for their sex. It's sad that society hasn't encouraged gender non conforming, lesbian, autistic and traumatised women to accept and value their healthy bodies.

Why are trans people so obsessed with public toilets and changing rooms??

I just don’t get it.

And most men who identify / dress as women still have a penis..

Why is that? If it’s surgically turned inside out and inserted up then to create some sort of vague idea of a vagina and testicles removed, then I don’t think I’d object.

But so few of the ‘I’m really a woman crew’ still have not done this.

Maybe those that do can have a special pass?

As a woman you should use the women's facilities. Though I doubt men will care since women aren't the predatory sex and you're no real threat to a man, so I suppose you could risk using the wrong sex facilities.

You've made this problem for yourself unfortunately so will have to figure it out as you go.

It's about enforcing validation publicly.

I'm not fan of trans ideology but in all fairness toilets are something we have to use every day when out in public so I can understand why someone would be concerned regarding what facilities they could and couldn't use. Changing rooms less so but it's a struggle to go about life out in public without using a public toilet at some point in the day.

If she looks like a man, which some TIFs do, then she shouldn't use women's facilities. Her cosmetic body modifications mean that she would be alarming and fear inducing to women using them, who have no reason to believe she's actually female. It also threatens the integrity of women only space to have people who look like men frequenting them.

She should use a dedicated unisex toilet ideally, or maybe an accessible one if that is the only option outside of men's and women's. Practically speaking if she looks male then she could use the men's and get away with it, even if that's against the Equality Act and is unethical.