TIFs in single-sex spaces

[MiddleCyclone]

Long-time Mumsnet browser (I remember watching penis beaker go semi-viral while I was already on here and god knows how long ago that was), left for a few years after all the trans stuff got too much for me, back to ask a question.

I’m a trans man who’s been on hormones long enough to pass nearly all of the time, who finally stopped using the women’s loos a couple of years back when a young girl watched me drying my hands and yelped “Mummy there’s a boy in here!”.

If the new guidance on single-sex spaces is to be followed I, read mostly as male (well, as a man), should go back in there and keep having these interactions, and keep making women and girls uncomfortable with my presence. Surely this can’t be the ideal outcome? It feels like the legislation has completely overlooked this.

The sad fact is that a significant proportion of transmen are disabled because taking massive doses of testosterone plays havoc with female pelvic organs. Many transmen have very valid reasons to use the accessible toilets.

From the Telegraph:
"Experts said the impact of the sex-changing drugs on bodily functions are under-researched and under-reported, with people “not being informed of the risks at gender clinics”.

Around 87 per cent of the participants had urinary symptoms such as incontinence, frequent toilet visits and bed-wetting, while 74 per cent had bowel issues including constipation or being unable to hold stools or wind in. Some 53 per cent suffered from sexual dysfunction.
The researchers said the rate of urinary incontinence, where urine unintentionally leaks, was around three times higher in transgender men than women, affecting around one in four compared to eight per cent of the general female population.
Other trans men suffered from frequent urinating including during the night, burning sensations, hesitancy, urgency and difficulty in going, while others had issues defecating.
Almost half had an “orgasm disorder”, while a quarter suffered from pain during sexual intercourse."

The authors of the study, led by Lyvia Maria Bezerra da Silva at the Federal University of Pernambuco, Brazil, said the findings “showed a high frequency of at least one of the pelvic floor dysfunction symptoms” and that more research into the impact of testosterone was needed because the “long-term effects are still unknown”.
The research was published in the International Urogynecology Journal.

Oh dear, I've said something about gender ideology that a TRA didn't like. What. A. Shame. I'll rephrase.

I agreed with you @OldCrone that we shouldn't be expected to come up with solutions to other adults problems, and that the trans community need to start campaigning for extra spaces.

I added my own opinion on how I think the public is feeling about gender ideology these days, and said that I think the best time for campaigning for extra spaces would be sooner rather than later.

I may have even mentioned how they might need to split their resources per the needs of their rather expansive community, and suggested they might find some surprising results when they see how that split works out, but honestly I can't remember if I deleted that bit before I posted.

For what it's worth: transmen, in my experience, are extremely good at figuring out solutions for themselves, botn individually and as a group - which figures, since they are women, and women are good at organising themselves.

OP here is absolutely not representative of transmen; in fact, I suspect this was nothing but another attempt at a Transman Gotcha, just presented in a different way.

So I would humbly ask that people here not paint all transmen with the same brush as OP deserves. Transmen as a rule don't whine and don't expect others to solve their problems; if they did, they'd be waiting forever for anything!

Yes, they want the male experience, but they can never have it, as they aren't male. The normal male experience of using a public toilet is to use a urinal, unless they need a poo - in which case they use the (often single) cubicle, which thus then tends to smell of poo.

Of course they shouldn't have period bins, as men have no need whatsoever for these in their toilets - but if you are female and you do need a period bin, this is just one more reason why the men's toilets are not appropriate for you.

I do agree with you that you can't go out of your way to be special - understanding very well that you've created a problem for yourself - and then complain because you have a problem. It makes no more sense than deliberately throwing your entire month's wages into a wishing well and then wailing about how you're going to buy food and pay your bills. In many cases, it would seem that it isn't just the TIMs who have decided that women's safety and comfort don't matter in the slightest when planning what they want for themselves.

@ParsleySageToiletDuckAndBinBags

In many cases, it would seem that it isn't just the TIMs who have decided that women's safety and comfort don't matter in the slightest when planning what they want for themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean by that?

I'm not an able bodied person and I can't see a problem, nor have you raised an example of one.

Many smaller establishments and venues have single occupancy facilities - which are by nature mixed sex/unisex.......it wouldn't be too difficult to find such a facility if you are uncomfortable yourself with using a female only toilet, or if you fear making women feel uncomfortable. Or else an accessible facility, at. a push.

Sorry for the confusion - I meant that many of the TIMs have co-opted women's toilets, without any thought to how their presence will make the women inside feel unsafe; similarly, if a TIF has gone to such an extent that they actually look like a man in the ladies' toilets, that will clearly cause the women in there to feel unsafe too.

I realise that this is far from universal, and that plenty - like you - DO understand and care about this, and so will take measures to mitigate any potential alarm felt by the women in there.

I think you should carry on using the gents. You’ve said you passed and you are comfortable there. I don’t think men would feel threatened by you, even if they noticed that you were biologically female.

I feel this is the big thing overlooked when pro-trans people use this (women who have transitioned to become men now having to go back to use the ladies toilets legally) as an argument against the new legislation. It is a different thing in terms of people being threatened or not. What I mean is, male-to-female trans people who still look like a man in a frock are likely to make women feel uncomfortable and threatened. But it doesn’t happen the other way round.

Good point! Many people have to think and plan ahead when considering facilities that meet their needs.

For what it's worth: transmen, in my experience, are extremely good at figuring out solutions for themselves, botn individually and as a group - which figures, since they are women, and women are good at organising themselves

I agree with this.

I think women who pass as men "nearly all of the time" will have to make strategic decisions if their aim to to remain safe and not outed.

Being a nearly passing person in the men's space is potentially very distressing if they dont want to be outed as female. Talking T and using the women's spaces is going to be very risky if their aim is not to be outed as trans.

The best solution for trans identifying people is to use gender neutral spaces. That's why they use apps to tell them where these spaces are.

If the op does pass nearly all of the time, and presumably wants to be seen as male all of the time, why would they even contemplate using women only spaces? Would they immediately out themselves.

But the same should apply to trans identifying males, but being 'outed' as trans, and therefore not women doesnt seem to concern them.

General thought that, if someone is concerned to be taken in in good faith, then hanging around to contribute to the discussion is always more effective than referencing an old and well known thread that (as I remember) made the mainstream media and disappearing.

Anyway my view is that transmen should obey the law like everyone else (I think men and boys are entitled to privacy and dignity too). So they need to either use the women’s facility and respond courteously to any challenges or, if they’re worried that their appearance might cause alarm, take the trouble to locate and use a gender neutral one.

If they’re concerned about causing distress then campaigning for additional gender neutral spaces might be worthwhile. I would support that.

(Spelling and grammar edits)

Being a nearly passing person in the men's space is potentially very distressing if they dont want to be outed as female. Talking T and using the women's spaces is going to be very risky if their aim is not to be outed as trans.

When you put it like that it makes it so clear that this is all about deception.

A woman who "passes" as a man or a man who "passes" as a woman is deceiving everyone around them about their sex. We shouldn't be talking about being "outed" as the sex you are, rather than the sex you wish you were. Being "outed" just amounts to people not being deceived. How can this be a bad thing?

It seems to me that the GRA with it's privacy clauses and the subsequent common acceptance amongst many people that deceiving others about your sex is acceptable (with or without a GRC) has meant that this type of fraud is now seen as normal, to such an extent that if someone points it out, it's them that's in the wrong.

Deception and fraud has now become preferable to honesty.

I was wondering this - when I was a child children often asked whether a person with short hair was a boy. Often normal looking women who just happened to have short hair. Children are still learning to navigate the world, build up their schema of what a man v a woman is, what a car v a motorbike is, what a dog v a cat is. Most mothers would have answered that child with ‘that’s not a man, darling, it’s a woman with short hair’ [possibly adding: …who likes to wear clothes from the daddy section of the shops. Cos not all women like dresses and long hair and that’s totally okay, isn’t it?]

What I mean is, male-to-female trans people who still look like a man in a frock are likely to make women feel uncomfortable and threatened. But it doesn’t happen the other way round.

They aren't likely to feel threatened i.e. that the TM will assault them or worse; but I'm sure a lot of men would indeed feel very uncomfortable with a female in their toilets (other than a little girl in with her dad, of course). Not least because they may worry about the possibilities of them being accused of assaulting her, if she's an agitator, delusional or vulnerable in some way.

To be honest, I would be concerned about any man who didn't feel uncomfortable about an adult female being in the men's public toilets with him.

genderblog.net/gender-surgerys-incontinence-problem/

Yes, there's an article on Nick Wallis' blog on incontinence in trans identifying people, also other adverse effects of hormones and 'affirming' surgery. A physiotherapy expert, Elaine Miller, is quoted in the article:

"...a disproportionate number of trans-identifying people seem to have persistent pain and chronic fatigue, but we don’t know why. A feature of any trans gathering is multiple mobility aids. Miller said “from a physio point of view, if you give somebody a mobility aid, you should have an exit strategy”.

And they should fit. “You don’t give them a wheelchair that you’ve bought off Argos that they’re all slumped in, that doesn’t fit their leg length.”

Miller told the conference that when you see a group of trans-identified people together, their mobility aids are often “very jazzy and match the person’s outfit.” This suggests they’re purchasing them themselves “which means there’s no rehab plan”. Miller cited the example of a 23 year old she spoke to who had bought herself a wheelchair. She had no physio plan in place to get her out of it."

So, I agree, many trans people suffer a variety of disabilities which make accessible toilets a very valid option.

On the wider issue, although I feel sorry women such as @MiddleCyclone and others like her, it's not my problem. Fine if they want to amputate their breasts and grow a beard and be incontinent or need a wheelchair, but I just want men kept out of women's and girls' single sex spaces, associations, sports, etc.

Oh my god, are men feeling the effect of the man's rights movement which is gender identity?

Poor things.

Hopefully large powerful organisations stop ignoring it and do something about the foreseeable, shit effects of pretending sex isn't real now it's affecting men enjoying a relaxing wee.

I am not sure what the answer is to this. I definitely don't want men (pretending to be women) in women's facilities, and I know some men object to women pretending to be men in their facilities, there isn't the physical fear but it comes across as creepy.

Why on earth did doctors think they could just change the social contract of sex based facilities by creating men-like women? Maybe you should ask the people who "transitioned" you?

Yes, it's about time men got involved in solving this problem (other than saying all "non-men" should be in with the women).

OP, perhaps you could post this on a male-dominated forum and get some feedback from men.

If you pass as a man then just use the mens you aren't a threat to them. We object to men in women's spaces as men are a potential threat. If you are more comfortable using the women's then you need to say I am a woman and have every right to be here.

Why on earth did doctors think they could just change the social contract of sex based facilities by creating men-like women?

Because they can. God complex.

Back when this was a more niche thing (50-odd years ago), there was something called the 'real-life test', where men who wanted to be women had to cross dress and use women's facilities to see how they got on before they could have surgery to modify their genitalia.

Obviously nobody asked women whether they were OK with this.

Men are involved - look at my history on here as one example...
And as above - men do not want women in men's spaces any more than men in women's spaces.

I would also not be comfortable with calling people 'non-men' that is to define people by whether they are male or not which is not acceptable...

We are all born either male (man) or female (woman) and remain that - we have equal value and using terminology like 'non-men' doesn't help anyone in a push to get society more equal as a norm.

It really is not complicated
As someone born male - you use men's loos
As someone born female - you use women's loos

If any individual decides to mutilate themselves sufficiently as to possibly cause distress then that is a consequence to their actions / choices and they need to take responsibility for it. So for the OP - she has decide to make her appearance more male-like (and that is of course her choice), but if there are consequences to her choices then she needs to take responsibility for those consequences and not avoid responsibility by using men's loos.

We need to stop all the what-if and buts, the attempts at exemptions and caveats.

born male = man = use men's loos
born female = woman = use women's loos

no exceptions ever. And if that makes it difficult for the OP - I feel sorry for where she has got herself, but it is 100% the results of her choices and so she needs to find her solutions which don't put obligations on others (in this case men).

It would be totally inappropriate for a women to go into a men's loos (whatever she looks like) which might have an individual bloke in there who is now at risk of allegations against them - or young boys who do not need to have women in their space.

It isn't complicated - it isn't open for discussion - there are only two sexes and loos are already provided for those two sexes - use the right one.

You have to make a choice.

A. Use female facilities & make women & girls uncomfortable

B. Don't use female facilities.

I don't get this.

The guidance on the law is very clear:

there will be times when you need to use the sex based service - for example in medical care specific to female anatomy, and I've got every confidence that TiFs will find that those services will handle this in a very considerate and accessible way, since they're certainly far more caring about people with gender identities than about boring old other women in all the rest of their policies and practice.

In other situations, additional gender neutral spaces should be provided alongside single sex ones. People cannot use the space designated for the sex that they are not, because that is treating those who need single sex spaces very badly, denying their equality and accessibility, and is likely to end in being challenged and if necessary banned (rightfully) for setting out to cause other people difficulties and harassment. They can absolutely choose the gender neutral space if they would prefer not to use the space for their sex.

Why would a TiF presenting in a very masculine way to the point they know they may cause confusion or alarm to women who need a single sex space - possibly due to trauma, cultural sensitivities, who knows why that woman has that need - wish to go into a women's only single sex space anyway, in preference to the gender neutral one??

The point of all this is a space for everyone.

I don't understand why this is so hard. I really don't. It just takes extending some consideration and respect for everyone, equally. That does include women. A subspecies barely above rats though they currently appear to be to the fashionable, but they do have protections in law to protect them from exactly this very very old prejudice.