What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

[WrongKindOfFeminist]

Thought it might be useful to find points of commonality.

Ever the optimist! 😊

1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.

2...Everyone involved is human and has human rights.

3...Violence and harm is wrong.

Maybe these are too broad, but I thought laying out the basics might be a good start.

When we get to the more contentious areas...

4....Violence against women is a serious problem
5....Better data is needed
6....People should be free to express themselves.

Any more?

1. very much this. I think we agree about a big part of "what the problem is", we just go very differently about "what is the solution".

Gender is about social pressure and stereotypes applied on people because of their sex.
I want the stereotypes to die and until they do so, I want everyone to feel able to opt out of them for themselves. I understand some versions of non-binary to be exactly that, a way out.

The earth is round
Hitler was bad
The sun going down is an illusion caused by the earth's rotation
Trump is an asshole
A shooting star is not an actual star
Pineapple doesn't belong on pizza

1. The opinions of other people on my sex don’t affect what it actually is.

6 is not always as straightforward as it sounds. Other people’s expression does have an impact on me and the social environment. There are likely to be conflicts on what is appropriate in different settings, and clothing etc always has meaning. I do agree though that British culture leans heavily towards people being free to express themselves in quite extreme forms, as long as it’s in appearance and not sound.

That was supposed to be a number 7 but autocorrect always thinks it knows best.

I'm not at all sure if this would work without an agreement on the definition of terms, otherwise the goal posts will be constantly moving. If one talks about violence against women one will be met with well, of course we al agree that transwomen are women etc. Ditto female, biological etc.
The other day I saw someone arguing that the thing that is fixed and immutable is gender identity, and that sex is the one that is changeable, I can't see how communication is at all possible when peoples use of words is forcing them to mean the opposite, the language has to have some sort of agreed meaning.

It would also make people playing about with post-modernism to damn well do it properly.

I don't think TRAs do agree on that - violence and threats seem to be the go-to solution to anyone disagreeing with them.

I was in agreement with you, until I wasn't.

"Gender is about social pressure and stereotypes applied on people because of their sex."

Aren't we in danger though of supporting the idea that you can be any "gender" you like if we totally deny all and any stereotypes. So for example, I believe that women have a far lower natural propensity to violence and cruelty than men. I also believe that they're far less likely to abandon their children than men. And I also think that very few 50 year old women would want to get into the pants of the 17 year old male office junior. Are these stereotypes?

On point 1, you've clearly never spent time on trans Reddit, such as r/mtf, where users' overarching ambition is to be "cute" and "soft" "girlies" (deliberately leaving aside the more unsavoury aspects here). It's all about jettisoning the stereotypes attached to your own sex in order to double down on those attached to the other. Worse than that, the very idea of being a man is woman becomes ALL about stereotypes. See also: "female brain", also known as neurosexism.

Well they think "violence and harm" and being "unsafe' is GC people using words.
But TRA hitting Maria and Julie, issuing bomb threats, throwing things, smashing windows, pounding on windows to disrupt meeting and vandalism are not violence because they are so stunning and brave.

So yes, I agree consensus on most things is impossible due to the lack of shared definitions.

Except being "non-binary" for oneself only works if you pretend the rest of humanity fit into rigid gender straightjackets just because they don't deny their sexed bodies. It's very much the new "not like other girls".

There's a song from the musical South Pacific about being an incurable optimist,
I hear the human race
Is fallin' on its face
And hasn't very far to go
....,
But I'm stuck like a dope
With a thing called hope,

Unfortunately, the hook of the song hasn't aged well:
I'm only a cockeyed optimist.....😄

I'd like to join you because I'm capable of Pollyanna-grade optimism myself, OP, BUT I have to agree with PPs that the absence of agreed meanings make it impossible.

For example, there are transpeople who will agree enthusiastically that women only spaces are not only desirable but necessary and should be protected by law.

Great - something we can all agree with!

Well, no - because they also say that TWAW. so TW are 100% entitled to use these 'women-only' spaces.

'All people should have human rights' should be a no-brainer, until you see what they mean by 'Trans rights are human rights' = another definition dilemma.

The problem with finding common ground is that trans ideology is not 'grounded', it has a factual void at its centre, and the arguments that orbit it shift and change to fend off any direct fact-based challenge to the non-fact that humans can change sex.

1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.

Tran ideology would instantly collapse without gender stereotyping. There's no other way for a man to pretend he's a woman, other than adopting the stereotypes of the opposite sex.

2...Everyone involved is human and has human rights.

Hopefully everyone agrees about this!

3...Violence and harm is wrong.

TRAs have battered women, lunged at them, poured stuff on them, blackened their eyes, and constantly threaten them with rape and violence.

4....Violence against women is a serious problem.

It is, and it's perpetuated by men, some of whom are TRAs. Sexual assault is over represented by trans identified men in prison

5....Better data is needed.

It is. It's anathema to TRAs.

6....People should be free to express themselves.

Up to point. Wear clothes that you like, not fetishise.

What's that? One out of six? 😄

Inclusivity means everyone.

Diversity means everyone.

Kindess and respect are good things.

No one should ever be left without a safe, accessible, dignified provision or service.

There's not quite enough agreement even on your first point @WrongKindOfFeminist . Yes Gender Critical Feminists believe that Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting. TRA/'Gender' advocates need to believe that whilst they are restrictive and limiting, it is important for them to believe in the truth and validity of the stereotypes as applies to the majority of boringpeople so that the special Transfolk have something to transgress and rebel against. If the stereotypes were eliminated it would be impossible to be Trans at all, so Gender Critical Feminists' efforts to eliminate them must be resisted.

They justify their violence by saying they are doing it in 'self-defense' against the harm/violence that has been done to them. They are being attacked so they have to use violence to defend themselves and their community from "genocide" being perpetuated against them.

Mental gymnastics.

Noooooooooooo!

I honestly can’t think of anything I’ve seen from a TRA that I agree with.

I don't think women are seen as human. See the Amnesty report for reference.

No I agree. They are human, but they're not necessarily seen as.

Pineapple doesn't belong on pizza

That's as batshit crazy as a man who thinks he can be a woman just because he says so.

I love you.