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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

448 replies

WrongKindOfFeminist · 18/07/2026 11:21

Thought it might be useful to find points of commonality.

Ever the optimist! 😊

  1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.
OP posts:
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11
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 15:20

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:18

It's like having an argument with someone when you realise you've lost; it's not as simple as turning around and immediately admitting you were wrong.

Transpeople know they've lost, and that the tide is finally turning against them, but just being blunt and expecting things to change overnight is going to provoke a backlash. It shouldn't, but it will.

So? We’ve had to deal with TRAs’ entitled and selfish shite for a decade. What is the difference?

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 15:21

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:18

It's like having an argument with someone when you realise you've lost; it's not as simple as turning around and immediately admitting you were wrong.

Transpeople know they've lost, and that the tide is finally turning against them, but just being blunt and expecting things to change overnight is going to provoke a backlash. It shouldn't, but it will.

It's not about winning and losing you absolute roaster.

It's about ensuring the wellbeing and equality of everyone. Yes EVERYONE.

Seethlaw · 21/07/2026 15:22

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:16

"Women here are overwhelmingly polite and willing to listen [...] They won't be kind about it, mind you"

Well which is it? And is it at least possible to acknowledge, rightly or wrongly, that this attitude is far more likely to increase tensions rather than ease them?

"Kind" is not a synonym to "polite and willing to listen". So it's not a matter of "which is it?" The women here are overwhelmingly polite, willing to listen and debate, and not willing to perform kindness to people who are not being kind to them in return.

And yes, women not being kind tends to make unkind men irate. But that's these unkind men's problem, not women's. Women never get anything by being kind. So not being kind is a requirement when fighting for women's rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 15:22

drspouse · 21/07/2026 15:20

See, I don't think TRAs agree with us GCs on this. They think that if a child prefers toys/clothes of the opposite sex that they are the opposite sex. They try to find the ultimate gender expression (clothes, manners, job, hobbies) that will make people think they are the opposite sex.

They really do seem as if they are all in favour of gender stereotypes and trying to make everyone shoehorn into them, and make their body match a set of stereotypes. They tell you that if you adhere to any stereotypes of your own sex (e.g. long hair/makeup/anything floral for a woman) then you must have a gender identity corresponding to your sex.

Exactly.

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:22

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Look, you've been taking everything I've said in the last few days in these threads in the worst possible faith, so I'm not going to be replying to you. Hold me up as some 'no debate' if you like, but the fact is you've been deliberately misinterpreting what I've been saying and arguing us in circles. It's a waste of both of our times and clearly neither of us are going to change our minds, so you can just save your time.

Lexibletheflexible · 21/07/2026 15:24

nicepotoftea · 21/07/2026 12:14

I think you are confusing 'feminine' and 'female'. What you are describing is fundamentally different because a man is being judged on his behaviour and a woman is being judged on her sex.

No I think you're confusing feminine and female. Men who possess what are seen as feminine traits are treated worse than men who are not. There is no argument to be had there.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 15:24

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 15:19

No.

It's tough shit because sex exists and will not cease to exist.

This isn't a problem I can fix.

I would love to have a magic wand where people can change sex. The trouble is they can't.

In law, all transpeople's legal protections are enshrined by virtue of their sex. You can only define a transperson by their sex. They are someone who identifies as the sex they are not. It is an essential part of the problem. Erasure of sex erases their own protections. Because otherwise anyone could claim to be trans and not even bother to identify as anything. I could claim I'm a transwoman and have all the protections a transwoman has.

Equally for healthcare it comes back to certain medical conditions being sex specific. And even ones which aren't presenting differently in each sex and requiring different treatments because of sex. This isn't something that gender critical people can magical change. Doseages for men and women are hugely different. Doctors NEED to know for safeguarding reasons. If there is confusion or deliberate concealment by transpeople this puts their health at risk. And the doctor is at risk of negligence if they do this. This isn't a far situation for doctors. Medical forms MUST refer to sex not gender at all times as a result.

And this is why I say tough shit.

Because this is in the best interests of transpeople. Including some I deeply care a lot about.

Failure to get this through thick heads will harm a lot of transpeople long term.

If people had said “tough shit” a lot earlier in this process a lot of this trauma could have been avoided. I blame the people who enabled this.

StandingDeskDisco · 21/07/2026 15:24

The overlap between yellow and green show the common factor is accepting gender variation: anyone can wear what they like and be as 'masculine' or 'feminine' as they like.

Edit: Can't seem to post a paste of the venn diagram.

Edit again: it is shown on this thread:
Do you think the term "Gender Critical" is why some people won't engage? | Mumsnet

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:24

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 15:21

It's not about winning and losing you absolute roaster.

It's about ensuring the wellbeing and equality of everyone. Yes EVERYONE.

Okay, clumsy wording by me but the point still stands. Acting as if anyone who's been proven wrong is going to immediately turn around and acquiesce is delusional. That's not a problem with transpeople or even TRAs, it's just human nature.

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:27

Irregardless of all of this, I do think that coming onto a thread specifically started to address commonalities between TRAs and GCs, only to fly off the handle when some of those commonalities are negative, really defeats the point of the discussion.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 15:27

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:22

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Look, you've been taking everything I've said in the last few days in these threads in the worst possible faith, so I'm not going to be replying to you. Hold me up as some 'no debate' if you like, but the fact is you've been deliberately misinterpreting what I've been saying and arguing us in circles. It's a waste of both of our times and clearly neither of us are going to change our minds, so you can just save your time.

You haven’t engaged with anyone’s points, on this thread or the one you started and abandoned. I won’t @ you any more but I’ll continue to contribute as I see fit.

Shedmistress · 21/07/2026 15:30

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 15:24

If people had said “tough shit” a lot earlier in this process a lot of this trauma could have been avoided. I blame the people who enabled this.

I believe people did say 'tough shit'.

And got banned. For life.

So they had to be polite. And now being polite is the problem.

Oh how my gast is flabbered.

nicepotoftea · 21/07/2026 15:31

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:13

I don't know! I wish I had an answer!

I think everyone can agree that arguments online & on social media about any political topic only serve to inflame things, and I find it frustrating when people act as if this is the only topic this doesn't apply to.

I genuinely can't think of a similar topic.

I agree that arguments on twitter are deliberately stoked by the algorithm, but that doesn't prevent people talking off line.

I think Sex Matters and FWS are pretty representative of women who believe that sex is important and open to discussion, but who is their counterpart?

A journalist like Sarah Ditum is certainly open to engagement, but Newsnight couldn't find anyone to talk to her.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 15:33

Yes, but there were a lot of people in authority who could have nipped it in the bud early on, and a lot more who thought it was “progressive” and clapped it like seals.

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 15:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 15:24

If people had said “tough shit” a lot earlier in this process a lot of this trauma could have been avoided. I blame the people who enabled this.

Well quite.

I have a whole pile of issues going on in my real life now quite unconnected with this issue.

The theme running through all is the sheer number of adults who are unwilling to do the hard and difficult things. They just want to do all the fun shit and then abdicate responsibility for all the less fun stuff and unfortunately this is having a negative impact on others.

I am having to chuck reality check grenades left right and centre - not unreasonably I might add. The trouble this means people actually have to get off their arses and deal with the problem then.

This is about avoidance of difficult issues because people, to be blunt, are lazy more than anything else and just want an easy life. It's not even about morality or not wanting to voice a controversial opinion. It's about abdicating responsibility so they can do as little as possible and get on with their safe life and dump it on anyone else.

I am now at the point where I get no shits. I know there is no one else to do it and everything will go to shit if I don't.

I suspect this the ultimate problem amongst the civil service, NHS and various other organisations. People couldn't be arsed to give a shit. That means giving a shit for women OR transpeople. They just hope the whole subject goes away and they never have to deal with it.

Unfortunately for them, this isn't the case and they will all be confronted with the consequences at some point and most will be seriously unimpressed about the outcome as they will not 'win'.

The bottom line: when this is the norm EVERYONE is a loser. No one wins.

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 15:49

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:24

Okay, clumsy wording by me but the point still stands. Acting as if anyone who's been proven wrong is going to immediately turn around and acquiesce is delusional. That's not a problem with transpeople or even TRAs, it's just human nature.

Yes it's human nature, but you need some people in life to put a rocket up the arse of those who should be taking these responsibilities seriously because it's literally their job and they are paid to be competent.

If they are incompetent and lazy I have no problem holding them to account. This isn't something we should be polite about. This is where disciplinary action is appropriate! Or indeed legal proceedings!

How mean of us, to get grumpy when we pay lots of money as tax payers for those elected to positions of responsibility or those who have been promoted in their senior jobs, to actually go "THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER AND DEAL WITH IT".

Then everyone wonders in faux innocence why Nigel Farage is riding high in the polls. It's because so many people have failed to do their fucking jobs properly and this seems to be some sort of massive shock and revelation.

No it's not really.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 15:49

Fully agree @RedToothBrush

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 15:52

I do not support Farage. I am frustrated as hell by how we have got to this point in 2026.

It's too many over promoted numpties who are too bloody comfortable. And that's the fault of the centre, centre left and centre right.

I'm raging. But my rage isn't being channelled into the dubious bullshit of Reform or the Greens.

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 15:57

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:27

Irregardless of all of this, I do think that coming onto a thread specifically started to address commonalities between TRAs and GCs, only to fly off the handle when some of those commonalities are negative, really defeats the point of the discussion.

Just bloody stop it.

People have been let off the hook for too bloody long because women haven't got angry.

We should be enormously angry and say it loudly and clearly. We should be writing this down and expressing the strength of our feelings over this. It should be in a constructive way though.

This includes telling people to wind their necks in and stop it with this crap about tone policing.

We have one almighty scandal in maternity services PRECISELY because of all these dynamics.

People have died because women haven't got angry enough.

We should be encouraging everyone here to be angry. Being angry is the only way we will get these issues up the political agenda and heads will rolls where they need to roll. We should be protecting these middle and senior management numpties anymore.

Seethlaw · 21/07/2026 15:58

GiddyGiddyGiddy · 21/07/2026 15:24

Okay, clumsy wording by me but the point still stands. Acting as if anyone who's been proven wrong is going to immediately turn around and acquiesce is delusional. That's not a problem with transpeople or even TRAs, it's just human nature.

That's true.

What's also human nature is to not rush to comfort one's opponent when they lose, after said opponent has dragged you through the mud and literally taken you to court for daring to simply speak the truth.

Especially when said opponent doesn't even admit they've lost anyway, or if they did, it's because you cheated or something.

Asking women to be all kind and forgiving now is utterly unfair. Also, it's sexism.

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 15:59

This nonsense is HARMING trans people and women ALIKE.

That's the bloody irony.

Women should not capitulate because they are ultimately right - you can't change sex. This doesn't mean they want the erasure of transpeople. In many cases it's precisely because they recognise that the transpeople around them deserve better than this utter shit show.

nicepotoftea · 21/07/2026 16:12

A productive debate could discuss when single sex services are necessary and e.g. the design of toilets. There would be disagreement, but there would be parameters for discussion.

You could have a discussion about freedom of association and how an association should describe itself if it wants to be for people who share a gender identity.

However, all this necessitates the acknowledgement of sex, and it's not clear who is prepared to do that.

RedToothBrush · 21/07/2026 16:31

nicepotoftea · 21/07/2026 16:12

A productive debate could discuss when single sex services are necessary and e.g. the design of toilets. There would be disagreement, but there would be parameters for discussion.

You could have a discussion about freedom of association and how an association should describe itself if it wants to be for people who share a gender identity.

However, all this necessitates the acknowledgement of sex, and it's not clear who is prepared to do that.

Absolutely.

What is a legitimate interest? Why did this legitimate interest develop? Who is vulnerable in certain situations? And who is most in need of these services?

One that's recently come up on my radar is a males only group. They are a social group. One of the things they've done in recent years is focus on mens mental health and mens friendship. In a healthy way. It's about trying to encourage isolated men to find friends.

There are other groups available locally but this one is doing well precisely because it is 'blokey'. One of the blokes thinks it's a bit old fashioned and not inclusive.

I pointed out who it is inclusive of - recent divorcees, men who are single, men who just want to get away from the stresses of family, men who have certain health issues, men who have trouble with showing they aren't always masculine in the presence of women. He's fine - he doesn't have any of this shit going on. Introducing women to the pot would result in many of the others in the group self excluding. This doesn't mean they don't mix with women. I know them because of this group.

In our heads we've come to believe that inclusive just means protective characteristics. This simply isn't true. It's a much more complex thing.

It can be about identifying vulnerable people within a single characteristic and providing a support network around those particular weaknesses and issues.

These are important distinctions to be made.

In terms of social groups whether it is appropriate to exclude males from a female group. It would be more appropriate for them to have their own group to represent and deal with their unique issues separately without harming their own interests or the interests of women. That's the point.

If there's a women's only outdoor group and one of its stated aims to discuss the female body and the challenges this has doing outdoor adventures and how impacts like female strength, childcare, the menopause and female aging and health care as well as safety and two blokes with beards come up giggling and ask if they are welcome to join, I think we should be able to tell them to legitimately stop taking the piss and fuck off to the LGBTQ group who had their presentation half an hour earlier on the same day. (Real life situation) Instead we are supposed to sit politely and just suck it up and then end up self excluding because it's obvious no one has the backbone to say, this isn't appropriate for you and we serve a legitimate gap in outdoor activities that there is high demand for.

FrippEnos · 21/07/2026 18:06

GiddyGiddyGiddy
Yes, but there are also pretty significant obstacles facing transpeople; they're more at risk of violent crime and there is a genuine crisis WRT medical care for them.

Can you provide some evidence of either of these?
Just something tangible would be nice.

Helleofabore · 21/07/2026 18:10

nicepotoftea · 21/07/2026 11:58

They are female, but if your argument is that they are still feminine, then a man is still masculine however he presents.

Can't fault that logic.

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