What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

[WrongKindOfFeminist]

Thought it might be useful to find points of commonality.

Ever the optimist! 😊

1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.

Yeah, I know. I just think it would be good to get to a place where we can all coexist.

I'm not talking about compromise, here, either. Just commonality. And I'm not talking about 'trans identifying' people, either. More the people who claim to cleave to gender-based ideas.

Agreed

The TRA’s hate Helen webberly? Where can I read more about that. Loathe that woman

One example:
https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1pj9sw2/helen_webberley_on_lbc_tomorrow/

People who are perceived as feminine are treated worse than people who are not.

I think everyone involved in these discussions agrees with that.

I don't agree.

The sexism I have suffered is because I'm female not feminine

No I don't agree with that. Why are you assuming to speak for "everyone"?

Physical reality has a far, far bigger impact than perception.

I kind of see what you mean, but it's really not that simple.

First, there's a difference between "feminine" and "female". Men who are perceived as feminine can be treated badly, but they are still perceived as being men, so they are not treated the same as people perceived as being female.

As for women, they all experience sexism because they are female, whether they are perceived as being more feminine, more masculine, or other. And as far as presentation goes: whatever women do, however they present, someone somewhere will mistreat them for it. So no, it can't be said that more feminine women are treated worse than the other women.

So I guess what you mean is that women, feminine men, and men perceived to be women, are treated worse than other men? I guess I agree with that, though I'm not sure what this forced teaming is supposed to accomplish?

Gender non conforming women are not treated better, so I don't think this is true.

But isn’t non-binary and trans just reinforcing the stereotypes, because essentially they’re saying I can’t be male/female because I don’t conform to these norms? 🤷‍♀️. Blasting the stereotypes would be, e.g. being a bloke, wearing a dress, but still acknowledging you’re a bloke, or being androgynous but not denying your biological sex. I wish we could see more people doing that….

I don't think 'gender advocates' even agree with each other.

There are people who sincerely believe that they have been born in the wrong body and that this can be fixed with surgery which can or has changed their sex, and there are people who have more in common with subcultures like goth or punk.

The first group are arguing that if they can comply with particular criteria, they should be treated as the opposite sex.

The second group are arguing that there should be no criteria.

Very true.

See also: "non-binary falls under the trans umbrella like all other non-cis identities" vs. "non-binary is outside the cis/trans binary system, duh!"

Where is that venn diagram with the three overlapping circles? That spells it out very clearly.

I don't think TRAs do agree with this, given how often they threaten violence against "terfs". Even if (as they claim) they would never physically follow through, it's clear they see nothing wrong with threatening violence and harm.

'Feminine' is subjective, and I dont think a man would be described as being feminine in the same way a woman would be.

I'm trying to think of a 'feminine' TW? Blair White maybe, but a women dressed the way he doesn't wouldnt be described as feminine.

So 'femininity' in men and women isnt the same, therefore wouldn't be treated the same way.

Being female is ultimate femininity

Because they are women, so still feminine.

They are female, but if your argument is that they are still feminine, then a man is still masculine however he presents.

"So I guess what you mean is that women, feminine men, and men perceived to be women, are treated worse than other men?"

Yes. That is what I am saying.

"So no, it can't be said that more feminine women are treated worse than the other women."

To give a really basic example, if a man pulled up to a mechanics and there was a conventionally feminine woman working there, he may feel doubtful of her competence. If the woman was non-gender conforming, he may be less doubtful simply based on her masculine expression and his belief that it probably means she can do some "boy things".

Exactly.

No argument there. I don’t perceive any men as “feminine”.

Violence and harm towards trans people is wrong for sure.

Not sure everyone would extend that towards women.

I think you aren't quite with the gist of the conversation.

A man that shows feminine traits is treated worse than one who does not.

That is because being a woman is seen as bad and being a man is seen as good to put it simply. So a woman who shows masculine traits may well gain some male privilege, but ultimately is still a woman, so feminine nonetheless.

To reverse it, yes it does mean that a man always retains a masculine identity, but if he shuns expression of masculinity in favour of conventionally feminine traits, then he is treated worse than his typically masculine counterparts.

So femininity is a common denominator, here. All women and some men are essentially seen as feminine. That is because they possess the anatomy of a female and/or because they adopt stereotypically feminine traits.

I think you are confusing 'feminine' and 'female'. What you are describing is fundamentally different because a man is being judged on his behaviour and a woman is being judged on her sex.

You beat me to it. Pineapple on pizza is my line in the sand. Yum.