Dozens of men discuss ignoring single sex space rules

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1u1webq/is_anyone_here_actually_going_to_follow_the/

as mentioned in other threads, I really am concerned about compliance. I know it will never be 100% but am concerned about what blatant non compliance may lead to

The guidance is pretty much null and void by the lack of a way to prove sex bit. Honestly, unless they brought in pants inspections, same sex toilets and changing rooms can't realistically be policed anyway. This was a question a lot of us have asked time and time again - okay, you want single-sex spaces...how do you prove what sex people are? Answer there came none, and so this is the situation we now have.

Ignoring women's rights and disregarding their consent is incel behaviour. These men are incels, pure and simple 🙄

People have these things called eyes, and humans have been able to correctly sex other humans since the beginning of time without looking in their pants. Despite ‘costume’.

The male entitlement on that thread is off the scale.
it’s all ‘I will continue to do as I want, I pass and if uncomfortable or scared women don’t like it they can just fuck off.’
If they really passed there would be no issue, would there?

You just need to use common sense. We can all tell male from female, and in the extremely odd circumstance when a woman may momentarily be confused for a man this can easily be rectified by the woman in question just speaking.
Once people get used to the new normal then the heightened alert and suspicions will fade. Most people will simply say " Sorry, but this is the women's changing room/toilet".

Men who persist in breeching boundaries are simply showing themselves up to be wrong un's and they will have to face potential penalties and actions on account of that.

It is weird. There are lots of posts on r/transpassing along the lines of 'only get gendered correctly (IE missexed) 50% of the time do I pass?'. And the very obvious bloke is assured that yes, absolutely he passes.

My dude, if at least 50% of people treat you as male even in a dress and make up, objectively and obviously you do not pass, do you?

I think you would use... eyes.

And yet when one of those men comes here saying 'I feel uncomfortable and scared at the thought of being placed in a men's ward in hospital' they somehow feel this ought to matter and women should care.

Go figure.

The nonsense from govt about 'you must NOT challenge, and challenge sensitively/get a member of staff' (very reminiscent of Boris's finest moment of go back to work but don't go back to work, stay home but don't stay at home, get on a bus but DONT GET ON A BUS') is risible. Loud clear responses from women that the mixed sex facility is over there will help.

I don't think the new guidance will stop entirely some men from entering into toilets and changing rooms. However, it won't be null and void: imagine being harassed in a toilet or changing room, being exposed to (male) nudity... It's crystal clear that the person behaving like that is not entitled to be in that place and can be reported to management. The management has then to do something to ban that person from that place (think about a swimming pool: cancel the membership, for example).
I think most of trans people will actually follow the law and use gender-neutral facilities.
As with many infractions, some people will break the law undetected (think about speeding), but the law is clear and will prompt more appropriate behaviour.

It shouldn’t need to be be policed by looking in people’s pants. Everyone knows what sex they are, it is up to individuals to follow the law, not for the public to enforce it.

On a motorway, if someone decides to travel at 90mph, it’s not up to the surrounding drivers to TPAC the offender and surround his car, forcing him to slow down and obey the law. It’s up to the individual to comply of his own accord.

I am sick of male toilet attendants, there seems to have been an increase in these lately. Sometimes there are signs saying there is one there, fair enough. However lately they just walk in, and to be honest, I feel uncomfortable with it.

Toilets have the extra protection of having a specific section in the Sexual Offences Act.

‘For the purposes of this section, an activity is sexual if a reasonable person would, in all the circumstances but regardless of any person’s purpose, consider it to be sexual.’

lol are ppl still trying the "but how can we tell so let's not bother it's all too hard ??" So called argument,?

It's very simple - men need to obey the law

we don't station a police officer by every traffic light to make sure ppl obey them, we are very clear that red light means stop & ppl are taught that as part of the Highway Code. Men who persist in breaking the law can face the consequences

‘For the purposes of this section, an activity is sexual if a reasonable person would, in all the circumstances but regardless of any person’s purpose, consider it to be sexual.’

A reasonable person would consider it sexual activity for a man to enter a female single sex space.

Well the advantage of having single sex rules is that it tells women to be wary and watch out for men who ignore the rule - a big red flag is raised that the individual is at best untrustworthy and happy to ignore law. “Good men stay out, so bad men stand out “.

We bring up our kids to be wary of and leave facilities if men enter.

This ! Everyone knows what sex they are and just as social pressure not to drink and drive works then friends of these trans identifying men should put pressure on them to use mixed sex spaces not women’s. It takes social pressure to do the right thing sometimes.

If I'm a service provider who refuses someone entry to a female single sex service because I believe that person is male I don't need to prove their sex.

If that person wishes to sue me as a service provider it is them that needs to prove their sex in court.

So what you are saying is there are men who will not obey the law, and therefore it isn't worth having the law?

In case of doubt women can call the appropriate authority eg managers of a business, or the police who can deal with it.

We managed for decades with men staying out of womens toilets, we can return to that.

Oooh i’m not sure about that. Sure most of the time. But i have definitely seen trans people who i would absolutely say pass 100% both ways. I also have a colleague i was convinced (for years) was trans (tall deep voice broad shoulders) until she showed up pregnant 🤣

Anyways I don’t really care either way. I think if a man wants to assault a woman they are probably not going to be put off by rules one way or another. So I don’t feel like this is the hill to die on - doesn’t make me feel safer one way or another

It's a very childish attitude to think that people should only follow rules that are intensively policed. Sure, my kids only brush their teeth if I stand over them making them do it, but once they get older I expect them to brush their teeth without me being in the bathroom policing things. Likewise, there is be a general social expectation that if the rule is single sex, that is followed by individuals without genetic testing being required on the door. But I think there is a broader sense of individual entitlement now and much less sense of duty to the social contract. It is a much bigger problem than 'just' single sex spaces.

Don't be daft. We know who are men. I've been "policing" bathrooms I use for a few years due to a horrid experience. I've had to shout loudly at 2 men to get out of the bathroom in a department store toilet within the past year. They weren't even pretending/dressed as women.

We HAD single sex spaces which worked as well as possible before this insanity took over and eroded the social contract that was our boundaries, and now people like yourself (for example) say well they were never going to work anyway 🤷‍♀️ You can't be that unintelligent that you can't see the logical flow there... can you?

This doesn't even make sense. Of course you can prove sex. It's one of the easier things both to detect and prove. It's like saying shoplifting laws are null and void because shopkeepers (being none-police) can't physically police their shops.

Justice Swift addressed this in GLP v EHRC

39 .... would place too great a burden on employers, requiring them to either “police” the use of lavatories or risk prosecution for breach of the 1992 Workplace Regulations. This point is significantly overstated.

40 The notion that an employer or anyone else is required to “police” the use of a lavatory, person by person and day by day, reveals the application of a “logic” so strict that it is divorced from reality and from any sensible model of human behaviour.

A 'sensible model of human behaviour' is that people respect the law, respect sex-segregated spaces as designated, 'the good men stay out so the bad men stand out' and we all get along OK, as we did until a small group of unrepresentative, noisy, aggressive and sometimes violent men started demanding access to women's spaces as if it was their human right.