Dozens of men discuss ignoring single sex space rules

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1u1webq/is_anyone_here_actually_going_to_follow_the/

as mentioned in other threads, I really am concerned about compliance. I know it will never be 100% but am concerned about what blatant non compliance may lead to

"I made a statutory declaration stating my intent to live as a woman for the rest of my life, and I plan to do so."

I just get up every morning and all the live long day I'm a women, no declaration, no plan, just breathing in and breathing out does it. 🤯

I think it’s easier for a woman to pass as a man than vice versa. I accept possibly I’m passing people in the street who I think are women but are actually male. I think if I was to have a conversation with one that’s unlikely.

there’s a man who comes in the female changing room at the gym who doesn’t pass. I now won’t use the changing room unless the one cubicle is free. So I won’t shower there.

there are a few men in dresses at work. None of them pass. Even if I didn’t know them before transistioning they wouldn’t pass. No wigs or lipstick or fake boobs would ever convince anyone with eyes or ears.

which gym?

I see a lot of chest beating and big talk on that thread. But how men behave online and how they'll behave in the real world are often two very different things.
A lot of these guys will probably conform when confronted with the reality of the laws constraining their desires.
And even those who initially don't will probably only have to be told once. Especially in a workplace scenario.
Of course there will always be some who need to be forcibly removed and banned or even charged with voyeurism or flashing before they get the message. But hopefully that'll be fewer than threads like that reddit one make it seem. They're bullshitting and they know it.

I agree.
My friend runs a venue and has had to chuck males out of the women's loos a few times. Usually weedy studenty types. One recent one actually started crying (yes really) and begged my friend not to call the police (friend had no intention of doing so, but the possibility seemed to be enough to scare that guy).

I saw a comment on that reddit thread along the lines of I won't return to any venue that throws me out of the toilets. Well, here's the thing - you're not that important, buddy, and the venue owner will be glad to be rid of you and not have to deal with your childish behaviour.

How so? Most other laws don’t set out how they are to be policed so why would this one?

Everyone who passes goes to a different school.

The men claimed for years they were entitled to be in the female toilets, then spent the over a year shouting and screaming that the SC ruling put their lives in a danger by making them use toilets with other men.

Now they're claiming that no one can tell anyone's sex and no one can tell anyone to leave the toilets anyway. So they are happy to share with men, so long as theres a sanitary bin in sight?

Most other laws are at least introduced being capable of being policed, without potentially violating additional laws (in respect of GDPR, privacy, assault and battery) in the act of so doing.

In 2020 I encountered a 'feminine' male in Centre Parks Spa women's changing room. Fortunately we were both wearing clothes. I was not a terf then and had no idea if 'transwomen' were now allowed in a women's changing room. It was my birthday and I didn't know if I complained whether staff would take me seriously or I would be accused of being transphobic. So, despite objecting to this man being present in the changing room, I didn't say anything - either to him or to staff. Now, because the law has been clarified (and I am a terf) I would have no problem complaining to staff and would confront the man if I felt safe enough to do so. Men are bloody obvious and it's gaslighting to say women can't recognise them.

Did a bit of analysis of the arguments to not comply..

The most common argument was political refusal or defiance, with 16 substantive arguments, or about 31% of the visible commenters counted. These commenters were not mainly trying to make a technical legal point. They were saying that complying would feel like participating in their own exclusion, so they would refuse on principle.

The second most common argument was avoidance or workaround, with 13 substantive arguments, or about 25%. These people were saying they might avoid public toilets, workplaces, hospitals, gyms, changing rooms, or other sex-separated spaces altogether, or use disabled or single-user facilities where possible. This is not really compliance in the positive sense. It is more withdrawal, avoidance, or trying to get through daily life without confrontation.

The third most common argument was identity-based refusal, with 12 substantive arguments, or about 23%. These commenters argued that they are women or men, and therefore will continue using the spaces that match their gender identity rather than their biological sex. The point being made is that they do not accept the premise that they belong in spaces separated by birth sex.

The fourth most common argument was that the rules apply to providers, not individuals, with 11 substantive arguments, or about 21%. This was the clearest practical or legal argument in the thread. They were saying the guidance tells organisations how to manage toilets, changing rooms, and single-sex services, but does not directly require individual trans people to self-exclude.

Joint fifth were two arguments, each with 10 substantive arguments, or about 19% each. One was unenforceability, meaning staff cannot reliably identify, challenge, or prove someone’s sex in real time, so the rules will be very hard to enforce in practice. The other was safety or fear of harm, meaning some commenters believe using birth-sex spaces would expose them to harassment, outing, confrontation, or violence, so they will use whichever space they feel safest in.

FFS.

You start with the clear statement so everyone knows what is expected of them.

Non-sociopathic people comply.

Some sociopathic people will say "Fuck it, how will they stop me?"

Of those, some will be obvious and may be challenged.

Some will get away with it.

That's what we do for speeding, shoplifting, domestic violence, graffiti, rape, trespass and pretty much every other law or civil rule I can think of.

What we don't do is throw our hands up and say "well this is obviously wrong but we can't stop it so we'll not bother saying it shouldn't be happening, we'll just change the law to say it's ok".

Jesus I am so sick of the misogynist fuckwittery. What is it about the idea that women might actually matter that seems to blow fuses in so many people's heads?

Reasons why men follow women and girls into public toilets:

Men will beat them up in the gents.

They have every right to be there

No on can tell

Ok, you can tell, but you can't ask

Some pass, therefore every man should be allowed in

There are no police on the door

Women need a chance to compliment them on their hair.

Someone thought someone was trans, but they weren't.

They are going to do it anyway.

Women need a chance to compliment them on their hair.

😄

David Lloyd

And their coats/hats - don’t forget that. I know I am always complimenting other women on their hat when I’m in the toilets

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5535487-organisations-refusing-to-give-their-single-sex-spaces-policy-david-lloyd-for-example?page=1

If you fancy sending a similar email I think we could make a difference. Sorry for what you experienced.

EDIT wait I cc'd you there before, sorry not hassling!!

Also, we need men on hand to give us emergency tampax

Look at it this way. The closer he gets to nudity or problematic behaviour, the more obvious his sex is going to be. You may not challenge him yourself but you can certainly let the service provider know someone is in the changing room, toilet or other woman-only space who should not be there.

So just as a trespasser who climbs a fence, causes no problem and leaves probably gets away with it, the less problematic the man's behaviour the more likely he is to get away with it. The important thing is that women now have the right to complain about the presence of an obvious male when before they did not.

Maybe disabled toilets could have a trans sign added to them for multi purpose use as they are a unisex space anyway.

This new argument that, coincidentally, all TRA are using at once, proves that they know they dont pass.

If they passed they could just carry on, certain they wouldn't cause a fuss.

But they want it known that the system is unenforceable in different ways- no one on the door who can ask for id.

They arent just saying that to each other, TRA MPs are saying it in meetings to get the message out to women. They need women to think that they can't challenge a man when hes in a womens space.

I am most disappointed, where is the "you don't want me to go into then gents, I'm so gorgeous and I'll be seducing your husbands? Have they given up on that one?

I think most MEN quite readily accept the need for single sex spaces and thats not changing. Its that minority who think by changing their appearance to resemble women they can go under the radar without anyone knowing who they really are.

Maybe disabled toilets could have a big sign on them saying

THIS ACCESSIBLE TOILET IS FOR DISABLED PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY NEED THE ADAPTATIONS, IT IS NOT A CONSOLATION PRIZE OR A CHEAP WORKAROUND FOR ABLE-BODIED TRANSPEOPLE WHO CAN USE THE TOILET DESIGNATED FOR THEIR SEX BUT JUST CHOOSE NOT TO.

I remember that. Quite a while ago.

How many trans identifying men have been convicted of male-pattern crimes since then?

Not equating the two obviously. Just interesting to see how one rare event some time ago is apparently very relevant when a TRA wants to prove that single sex spaces are bad for women, but other rare events that have happened more recently are firmly out of scope when it comes to women who are proving why single sex spaces must be single sex.

Nope. If we recognise women need single sex spaces protected, we also need to recognise that disabled people need the spaces created for their specific needs protected.