Dozens of men discuss ignoring single sex space rules

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1u1webq/is_anyone_here_actually_going_to_follow_the/

as mentioned in other threads, I really am concerned about compliance. I know it will never be 100% but am concerned about what blatant non compliance may lead to

sure it’s easy to police in theory. But in practice?

would you really go up to someone in a bathroom and say i think you’re a man, prove you’re a woman if you want to stay here? I wouldn’t. I might just huff and tut.

You might not directly approach them on your own, but you could

• if other women there too, collectively approach
• choose to call management there and then (eg in a sports club)
• take a mental photo and report to management
• call the police

The point is that following the ruling it is clear that right is on the side of women and not on the side of trans identified men.

For a few years we were in a position that women were being told the rights were not on their side and they were bigots for being concerned. That has now gone.

bathrooms - I'll wait for a restroom as well!

in the UK it's toilets

bathrooms are the private spaces in our homes

I was reading a thread yesterday where someone asked if women minded if there was a transwoman in the women's public toilets. The majority of responses said of course they didn't mind, as they had their own lockable cubicle. Quite a few went beyond that, saying that they had often popped into the gents when there was a queue for the ladies, or that the transwoman was likely to be a more attractive woman than they were, or that they'd probably compliment the transwoman on their hair, or that they never felt in danger from transwomen, only from cis men. No-one mentioned that if "transwomen" are allowed into the ladies, any man can go in and can refuse to leave.

Excuse me but what planet are you on that you think people can’t tell the difference between male and female?

The point is a) it's wrong - sex is easily detected and verifed and b) even if it wasn't wrong - the fact that a law is difficult to enforce doesn't make it "null and void".

would you really go up to someone in a bathroom and say i think you’re a man,

Employees in a shop are trained not to go up to a shoplifter and confront them about theft. That doesn't make shoplifting laws "null and void". Who would even think that?

There will undoubtedly be men who decide the rules don't apply to them; but hopefully fewer who act on this belief than who express it. As a pp said the fact that rules become unequivocal does puts women who need to complain in a much stronger position. A point I think may in the long term be even more important, but which hasn't got much attention so far: I think, and hope, that the clarification that no, transwomen are not women, may have an impact on how many people transition in the first place. I think the attractiveness, to an adult male, of claiming to be a woman, may be diminished when claiming to be a woman doesn't get him so much; and I think parents and other adults may be less keen on supporting kids into transitioning, given that it's now crystal clear those kids are not going to have a straightforward life "as" the opposite sex. Accepting your sexed body, and helping others to do so, may rise in popularity (even if there's a badly-worded conversion therapy ban) and we may see the numbers of people identifying as trans fall from here on. I know that will be misinterpreted as "they want trans people dead!" but of course it isn't that; it's more akin to wanting fewer pregnant women to be folic acid deficient in order to reduce the number of babies born with spina bifida.

Particularly if the only thing you were denying access to is the female single sex facility.

There's a gender neutral one right there that they can use. They have an accessible facility. Reasonable doubt is enough to deny access to the single sex, as there's a duty to provide and protect this for women. 99.9% of whom are obviously and unambiguously in the right place. The SCJ mentions that individual tragedies (bit of an exaggeration in this context) do not outweigh the needs of the many for that facility to be protected for the access and equality of biological women as a group.

I have challenged men who are in the women’s toilets and apart from one (ordinary looking middle aged bloke) who scowled and shoved me when I prevented him from going in, others have been apologetic and conciliatory.
Possibly some had made a genuine mistake. These were all dressed as men. Haven’t spotted any trans people actually in the ladies but I have elsewhere.
And, in the light of my bad experience, if I did see any man in the women’s toilet I would immediately leave and report it to store security or similar.

This happens already. Like many gender-non-conforming women, I've been 'challenged' in women's toilets.
It doesn't take the form of 'going up to someone in a bathroom [toilet - the facilities that do not have baths in them] and say i think you’re a man, prove you’re a woman if you want to stay here?'

It takes the form of 'Excuse me, this is the ladies!'
I deal with it by replying in a friendly tone - 'That's OK, I'm in the right place'
which resolves the issue - a second glance enables the challenger to ID me as a woman, because it's really not that difficult; she perceives my non-aggressive and friendly attitude; and she hears my voice; she recognises me as a woman.

It happens. No drama. I welcome the challenge because it is an indicator of women proactively protecting women's spaces.

Any man who has genuinely made a mistake will quickly leave.

Any man who has deliberately entered a space which he knows is designated for women only should quickly leave, but if he stays, he is 'outing' himself as a transgressor, and his actions may result in security/management, and eventually if he causes a public nuisance, the police being called to deal with him.

The sooner men are exterminated the better!

Not all men.

🙄

I note this from one response-
is more heartbreaking to be seen as a monster than to be attacked by one.

and I don’t think I’ve ever read anything more male. Having been attacked, by more than one man, I can assure the person who wrote that I’d take being though of as a monster anytime over what I actually experienced

If you don't know your own sex by the time you reach adulthood then you wouldn't be allowed out without carers, who WOULD know your sex. So if you DO know your own sex why would you force yourself into the opposite sex's space?

People should be policing themselves (as they have always done). The ones who don't are dangerous.

Bully for you.
The end point of your ‘logic’ is that we shouldn’t bother with any laws re sexual offences, trespass, etc etc.

This comment made me laugh:

"No. 100% non-compliance, no matter the consequence. I want to look back on this period with my grandchildren, decades later, and be proud of myself."

(Yes, I know adoption is a thing. But how does he think babies are made??)

It isn't difficult. You just use the toilet that matches your sex - like we used to up until about 5 minutes ago. It is policed by public shame at entering the wrong facility. In this case public shame is doing the job it is meant to do - stopping the bad from doing bad by being policed by the good i.e. good men stay out so bad men stand out. Only bad actors want to invade women's sex based spaces.

Isn't it weird how every single one of those blokes talking about ignoring the law, is actually admitting that they understand that as a male person they should not use female single-sex spaces?

Good and decent people will obey the law, they don't need 'policing'.

If someone doesn't want to use single-sex toilets for their sex, they will use the unisex options. They will (just like disabled people have done for a long time) take the availability of suitable toilet facilities into account when they plan trips out.

Let us remember that people with disabilities that require accessible facilities or toilets with hoists have no choice in the matter. People with trans identities have previously made an active choice to use opposite-sex facilities, riding roughshod over the rights of others. It is not unfair to ask these people to follow the law - as I said, there are unisex facilities available in many places.

All that is happening is that these men in the Reddit thread are outing themselves as selfish and not decent.

Lots of men on that Reddit thread talking about feeling uncomfortable and worried about being shouted at. Where actual women are feeling too worried to use the toilets in case there’s a man in there and worried about being raped or sexually assaulted. Yes of course it’s not all men (transwomen) who would do this, only a very small minority but regardless it happens. I personally know someone who was raped by a total stranger in some women’s public toilets. So yeah forgive me if I don’t want men being in there.

None of them pass, we see them and we know who they are. They’re deluded if they think they do pass. We just don’t call them out because we are intimidated by their violence and aggression.

"Just a heads up Mumsnet are discussing this post, in a thread rather ironically started by a man in a women's space. It's the usual cluster fuck of "we can always tell" plus posters openly admitting the point is to make our lives hard enough to deter transition."

<waves>

What's up guys? You don't like Mumsnet coming into "your space" and reading your comments?

Diversion alert on.

FFS, there aren't any baths in public lavatories, just why? Excess of prudery?
Bit more of an argument for rest, after all one can have a sit down, but if forced to hover it is definitely not restful.

Diversion alert off.

You’re right that if a man wants to assault a woman they will do so regardless of rules. However if the law is strictly enforced that men can’t go in a female toilets then maybe one going in stands out more and is more likely to be confronted/women will warn other women that there’s a man in there, etc.

The person I know who was raped in the toilets at a NT place was 11yo. It was a man who raped her. Not a trans person. Dressed like a man, looked like a man. He’d sneaked in unnoticed and hid in a cubicle. Was quiet and her parents let her go to the toilets on her own. I guess my point is that he had to sneak in. If anyone had seen him back then (this was a long time before trans became a thing), he’d have been stopped. Anyone would have felt confident to turf him out, go and report him, etc. So now someone wouldn’t need to worry about sneaking in unseen. It just makes it all more likely.

<waves too>

Young, pretty, kind hearted me had no problem confronting men who threatened me or others. Now I’m in my battle axe era I don’t even have to shout at them any more, it’s not a problem for me.
And I wouldn’t be asking a man to prove he’s a woman, I’d be asking what the fuck he thought he was doing.

I just popped over for a look. They'd better get used to being challenged. I do like the comment from the guy who says he doesn't use women's spaces because his brain is worried about being confronted - good, that is exactly what you and every other bloke (trans or not) is supposed to feel like, that's the point, you know you are doing something wrong and the worry and social stigma should stop you doing it. If you need more motivation than that you are obviously a predator.

As for some comments here 🙄 Imagine you see Pete, a manly man, in the ladies changing room. What would you do? Politely let him know he's in the ladies? Go and tell management if he refuses to leave? That's what you do any time you see a man in there, sorted.