How to respond he/she?

[Manchesteruser]

Out with friends. One friend's son has a TIM friend. Obviously male but fake boobs and wearing a dress, about 25. Everyone refers to him 'as she'. I asked one, 'why do you refer to him as 'her/she' rather than 'he' and was told that that was what he prefers.

How would you have responded?

It is though. Trans identifying males use women’s loos, take part in women’s sports, join menopause support groups, use the women’s pond at Hamstead Heath, they join lesbian groups, sign up to dating apps as “women” searching for women. They behave in a threatening and/or poor me way when women say nah mate this space isn’t for men. And that’s just a few of the ways it is my and other women’s business. Lots more examples.
It should always be my and every women’s right to assert our place and right as women to be women. It is my business.
I will not wheesht. I will not shut up about it.

If you are happy to enable men to share your spaces while they enjoying fetishizing womanhood crack on but I will not sit quietly as you do that.

I wouldn’t have asked anyone why they call him she. It’s pretty obvious and it’s likely to get their backs up.
It’s easy enough to avoid awkwardness when someone is actually present as you wouldn’t say he or she anyway (unless you were deliberately cat’s-mothering them!)

Well, it’s not an observable biological/physical fact, like being female or having white or dark skin or being a certain age.
It is more akin to a belief than to anything else.

Being trans, in the form that we are expected to accept, that is TWAW and TMAM, is a belief and has no basis at all in scientific fact.

Well you are welcome to go and hang out with men in unisex spaces but I hope you understand that you have no right to consent on behalf of other women. Women's single sex spaces are not yours to give away.

Can someone please explain to me why lying to someone (in the form of using wrong sex pronouns) is characterised as 'politeness'?

It really worries me that so many women are caving to what men want (regardless of the impact on women) because they have been told it's 'manners'.

Like Christ on a bike, the men have done such a number on you.

A word for "makes stuff up and claims you said it" would be incredibly useful on here.

Because I said abuse. Not domestic abuse. My comparison was with the abuse suffered by other, previously marginalised group.

And again, being rude to people doesn't make you heroic, a truth-teller, activist or public servant.

Keep up.

I feel like wrong-sex pronouns are lies, and I hate to be expected to lie. I also find it ridiculous when those around me take part in these lies.

Those of you on this thread who think it is respectful or polite to call a male "she" because that's what he wants, how would you feel if I claimed to be the queen and expected everyone to address me as, "Your Majesty," instead of by my name? Or if I said I were a vicar when I wasn't, and wanted you to call me "Reverend"? Or if I said I were a doctor and wanted you to call me "Doctor"? Would you be ok with this, or would you be annoyed at being expected to go along with it? Would you consider it a lie?

And no, it is not always possible to avoid pronouns in front of a person, especially if other people are there too. Anyone who says they don't use someone's pronouns in front of them either hasn't noticed, or has weird conversations. You often use pronouns when talking about each other; repeating someone's name instead is clunky and obvious, and using "they" would be just as provocative as using the right-sex pronouns.

She doesn't prefer she, she is a she. It's a matter of fact, not convention. In much the same way as the man mentioned in the OP simply is a he.

Christ on a unicycle juggling baguettes, stop being misogynistic.

You don't speak for women, least of all me. Your patronising inability to understand that lots of us have absolutely no issue with trans people really isn't our problem.

As for an explanation, here you go: some people are trans, and lots of people are fine with that. We get really annoyed when people are unnecessarily rude to our trans friends, same as we do when they're being homophobic.

We get really annoyed when people are unnecessarily rude to our trans friends

You mean using correct-sex pronouns? Some people don't like lying. Some people are really angry at the takeover of women's stuff by men who say they are women. Some people would rather avoid trans people due to being expected to lie, or because they are angry at the takeover - oh, but that's being transphobic, isn't it, we aren't allowed to leave a situation which has a negative effect on us, right?

Being gay isn't an observable fact. Homophobes have always claimed it was a lifestyle choice.

I'm afraid being trans is real, and normal.

Claiming it's a belief is just ignorance. You aren't trans, and clearly don't have any close trans friends - perhaps educate yourself. Listen to other people.

No one would invent being trans. Living as trans is violent, difficult and intensely stressful - but essential, because of how it heals dysphoria. Try reading what older trans people have written on this subject, it may open your eyes.

some people are trans

Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean some people think they are the opposite sex? Or perhaps some people really, really want to be the opposite sex? Or do you believe that some people are literally 'born in the wrong body'?

Or do you mean something else entirely? It would help to know exactly what you believe 'being trans' actually is.

Try reading what older trans people have written on this subject, it may open your eyes.

Be careful what you wish for...

Here's one example (if MNHQ don't censor it).

If women want to show how cool they are with hanging out with men, mixed spaces exist to facilitate that.

But you don't get to consent on other women's behalf. Women's single sex spaces are not yours to give away. You get that, right?

There's no problem with trans identifying men who leave women and their spaces alone. But while you might be prepared to pretend these men can change sex, it doesn't mean the rest of us are.

Put it like this. I don't care what trans people believe, or why. I don't care if they are convinced they were born in the wrong body. But I do care that I'm expected to go along with it, when I don't believe it. And I do care that males shouldn't use women's toilets, sports, refuges, changing rooms, and all the rest. Pronouns are a part of this too. Can you understand that?

Being gay is a sexual orientation. Sexual attraction to one sex over the other is certainly observable.

Whereas being 'trans' is what exactly? Simply gender non conforming (which is fine)? Born in the wrong body? Lady brain?

None of which amounts to actually being the opposite sex. So why is access to women's spaces even on the table for these men?

Being gay is a state and a lifestyle that can be lived without negatively impacting other peoples rights. Being trans the way that most trans people want to be trans involves removing the rights of women to keep women's spaces single sex. Trans people are expecting others to accept their belief and give up their rights.

Can you not see that most people would not be what you call a bigot if the trans community would just accept that they are going to have to begin the long fight for their own spaces and rights. it really is the only long term answer I'm afraid.

I live with someone who's trans. In fact, gave birth to them, raised them and have watched them develop.

I've seen how coming out not only healed something within him, but also revealed the extent to which he'd hidden his true self from us. He's himself, a trans man. I don't see him as a woman.

(Please don't accuse me of 'transing' him - it's ridiculous. I had no part in him being trans, and although I support him 100% would far prefer he wasn't because of the violence he's endured.)

Please try reading some trans voices, if you wish to understand what being trans is.

Being gay isn't a lifestyle. It's who someone is. Ditto being trans.

Seriously no reply to such ignorant transphobia.

Another one for the "doesn't actually get trans men exist " list. Ah well.

I've read plenty of stuff by trans people. I posted some on this thread. I know exactly what drives most men to transition, and it's really not pleasant. This is why we don't want those men in women's spaces.

I get you're someone whose Concern about Spaces is secondary to sitting online all day chucking unnecessary abuse at a minority, yeah.

I completely get that.

Objecting to aspects of trans people's lives which don't affect you in the slightest (like their names and pronouns) is the giveaway there.

I would genuinely be interested in your answers to the points about how trans rights intersect with/take away from others’ rights, with reference to gay rights; and on trans people taking up the campaign/fight for their own spaces and facilities.

I'm not that bothered by trans men. I dislike the internalised misogyny which seems to drive many of them, but they're still women, so they're not threatening in the way that TIMs are, which is why they don't get discussed in the same way.

You should see that as something positive.

I didn't say they were. Just my own opinion, which I am entitled to. I speak for myself, no-one else.