How to respond he/she?

[Manchesteruser]

Out with friends. One friend's son has a TIM friend. Obviously male but fake boobs and wearing a dress, about 25. Everyone refers to him 'as she'. I asked one, 'why do you refer to him as 'her/she' rather than 'he' and was told that that was what he prefers.

How would you have responded?

I’m as rabidly GC as they come in fact I’d go as far as to say I’m anti-trans but I still wouldn’t try to compel someone’s speech on this topic. By the same token I wouldn’t expect them to compel mine. I’d think less of them though.

Are you aware how long it takes to access gender-affirming care on the NHS? It's 10-20 years. And that's for initial consultations and counselling.

Most children referred within the past 7 years will not see anyone until, at earliest, their late 20s.

Surgery for under-18s is banned in most countries.

Most trans children become trans adults and stay that way. Puberty blockers help prevent brutal surgeries later on, and give children time to grow up and be sure about next steps.

Forcing children through the wrong puberty when they know it could be prevented causes immense harm, suicidal udwation, exam failure - all while they're coping with horrendous, often sexual, violence at school. Denying kids like that specialised counselling is destroying lives.

No one would go through the intense harassment and violence involved in being a trans child if it didn't mean everything to them.

Most detransitioners support trans people.

A lot of online detrans people have had no medical intervention at all.

Question is why so many adults find it such a fascinating subject. It's really not normal to read obsessively about and discuss children's bodies.

Question is why so many adults find it such a fascinating subject. It's really not normal to read obsessively about and discuss children's bodies.

Who is going to safeguard children if not adults?

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Most trans children become trans adults and stay that way.

We don't know that. Nobody knows that. That's the entire problem: we don't know what becomes of those children whose bodies have been horrifyingly mistreated when they were too young to realise what was happening. We don't know how many of them are happy with what was done to them, how many are distressed over it, or how many committed suicide because of it. We don't know. And that's a huge fucking problem.

Question is why so many adults find it such a fascinating subject. It's really not normal to read obsessively about and discuss children's bodies.

Pediatricians will be happy to learn that you think they are all pedophiles.

Forcing children through the wrong puberty

What are you talking about? There is only one puberty any particular child can go through, and it is an essential part of becoming a healthy adult. It's normal for puberty to be a confusing, difficult, even distressing time, and it is good parenting to be aware of this and support and guide a child through it.

It is a child's birthright to reach the adulthood, and maybe parenthood, they were destined for, and I do not believe that adolescent distress is a good reason to sell that birthright for a "mess of potage" (as Esau did because he was hungry). Resolving distress through physical means such as surgery is no preparation for dealing with the almost inevitable distress of later life, such as relationship break up, bereavement, and the distress suffered by many in extreme old age. And a trans life is almost always a complicated life trying to deal with people who do not understand.

The thing is though, if you can't change sex, which you can't how can it be a black and white fallacy to say you can't change sex?

If then it's not a fallacy then yes it is a case of saying either you are talking bollocks or you aren't. This isn't difficult.

I do think the GC side has used propaganda techniques at times. But on this particular point there there's a fundamental problem.

It's not a point that is contentious. Anyone who makes this point contentious can only do so through propaganda and misinformation.

That's the entire issue. It's a Big Lie.

Would we say that saying people who think the world is round who say you either agree or you are a nutty conspiracy theorist are using black and white fallacy?!

Think about this.

It can only be a fallacy if it's a falsehood.

I'm taking about something you clearly haven't experienced: gender dysphoria.

Trans children are born, not made. Going through the wrong puberty is deeply distressing for them, because the outer body doesn't match how they know themselves to be.

It is immeasurably cruel to deny these kids the appropriate counselling to help them cope with this - and, further down the line, treatment which will give them time to mature and make decisions later.

Puberty blockers have been used by cis children for a long time (they still are) to prevent early puberty. A very small number of trans children are suitable for them, and have been helped by them.

Campaigning against help for trans children has had three effects:

1. Deterioration of mental health. There is widespread depression, anxiety, use of prescription medications, distress, school refusal, self-harm, hospitalisations and suicides among trans children.

1. The demonisation of trans children, who are seen as deserving violence (especially sexual violence) at school. Statistics show all trans children are targeted within schools and suffer greatly - many just leave without doing exams, because it's so awful.

1. Far more adult surgeries. Forcing trans boys to develop breasts they don't want, just means they'll have top surgery later. It also forces them to wear binders.

None of these effects have helped trans children.

Yes, some trans kids change their minds - but most of that's because of the.immense social pressure and ceaseless harassment trans people face. And the vast majority of them have changed little more than a haircut.

Trans adult surgeries have a very low regret rate, and many trans men have babies.

All the young trans adults I know have been through things no child should - denial of care, violence, harassment and (in all cases bar two, one of them my own son) getting kicked out by their families. They are picking up the pieces of their lives, starting again, forming relationships and getting jobs. Many have PTSD after their experiences. It has stopped precisely none of them being trans.

Breaking children at a young age is inexcusable. There is not even appropriate counselling for them if they can't afford to go private (true in most cases).

I hope terfs know that all their campaigning has led to this: young trans men now contemplating the quickest, cheapest way to get surgery they wouldn't otherwise have needed.

No one would be trans unless it meant everything to them. Their lives are too hard. Harassment, violence - not to mention online forums dedicated to discussing their bodies, lives and appearance. Formulating paranoid conspiracy theories about them. Declaring them evil fetishists. Could you cope with that?

I have felt it and experienced a great desire to be the opposite sex. I've said this before.

That's part of my problem.

You still can't change sex though. Pretending you can and telling everyone that they have to play make believe to remedy this, doesn't change this reality.

It doesn't mean your bollocks magically fall off if you are male. It doesn't mean you grow a dick if you are female.

It is a Big Lie to suggest different.

There's no such thing as 'the wrong puberty'. There's either puberty or blocking puberty through drugs.

Thank you transparent, for illustrating my point perfectly about propaganda versus material reality.

“Puberty blockers have been used by cis children for a long time (they still are) to prevent early puberty.”

It is because of the treatment of girls with Lupron for precocious puberty that we know the long term life limiting and potentially shortening health issues of using these drugs. And now the prescription of them for that purpose is rare.

When they are prescribed for precocious puberty they are prescribed for a short time and then puberty resumes and continues to completion. In the case of being used for gender identity purposes, the drugs are used for a longer period of time and then the body’s normal puberty is prevented permanently causing other health issues in later life.

The negative health impacts of using puberty blockers for this particular purpose is why the usage has been scrutinised around the world and subject to bans. The lifelong negative health impacts that develop in the decades after use are known because of the treatment of the girls with precocious puberty.

I think people are at great risk here of spreading harmful misinformation if they cannot also acknowledge the life limiting and potentially life shortening side effects of these drugs, especially on female people.

Have you experienced gender dysphoria?

Oh dear. So very dramatic.

I'm taking about something you clearly haven't experienced: gender dysphoria.

I have. Still do.

Going through the wrong puberty

There's no such thing as a "wrong" puberty, because there's no such thing as a "right" puberty. There's only puberty. Children on hormones don't go through the other sex's puberty. Girls don't grow balls and a penis. Boys don't grow a vagina and a uterus. They all go through the one and only puberty they can go through: their own sex's, just a distorted version of it.

It is immeasurably cruel to deny these kids the appropriate counselling to help them cope with this

Actually, I agree, but only because the "appropriate counselling" is the one that tells them that this is the one and only body they have, and that changing sex is impossible. Telling them that if they take immensely dangerous drugs, they will be the other sex, is indeed "immeasurably cruel".

Puberty blockers have been used by cis children for a long time (they still are) to prevent early puberty.

Yes, with horrible medical side-effects. Funny how TRAs never mention those side-effects when advocating giving them to "trans kids".

A very small number of trans children are suitable for them, and have been helped by them.

Please cite your source for this claim, because so far all studies I'm aware of have shown the contrary.

Deterioration of mental health. There is widespread depression, anxiety, use of prescription medications, distress, school refusal, self-harm, hospitalisations and suicides among trans children.

True but correlation isn't causation. Please cite your source showing that all those things are caused by the gender dysphoria. Because the way I see it, for most current-day "trans kids", the gender dysphoria is simply another symptom of an underlying distress, and will disappear when that distress is treated.

The demonisation of trans children, who are seen as deserving violence (especially sexual violence) at school. Statistics show all trans children are targeted within schools and suffer greatly - many just leave without doing exams, because it's so awful.

Statistics, heh? Got some handy to prove this claim?

Far more adult surgeries. Forcing trans boys to develop breasts they don't want, just means they'll have top surgery later. It also forces them to wear binders.

I don't think you understand how this works. Little girls using puberty blockers don't develop breasts as long as they take the puberty blockers. Once they stop taking them, their puberty resumes, and those breasts develop, whether they take testosterone or not. So if they do indeed grow to not want those breasts later on (which is a massive "if"), they will have to have the surgery, even if they've been drugged up since they were 8.

Yes, some trans kids change their minds - but most of that's because of the.immense social pressure and ceaseless harassment trans people face.

Funny: that's not what they themselves say. I don't think the woman who sued the surgeon who operated on her did it because of social pressure and harrassment. She specifically did it because she had never been able to properly consent to having her breasts removed, and she's now distressed by the lack of them for the rest of her life.

Trans adult surgeries have a very low regret rate,

You don't know that. Nobody knows that, because there's no study whatsoever on the matter.

and many trans men have babies.

See what I told you about there being only one puberty anyone can go through? You can put a little girl on puberty blockers and then on testosterone, and she'll still go through some mangled version of the female puberty, because that's the only one she can go through.

All the young trans adults I know have been through things no child should - denial of care, violence, harassment and (in all cases bar two, one of them my own son) getting kicked out by their families. They are picking up the pieces of their lives, starting again, forming relationships and getting jobs. Many have PTSD after their experiences. It has stopped precisely none of them being trans.

You're making it sound like they went through those horrible things because they are trans. Let me posit another theory: they went through those horrible things because many things in their lives were wrong, and the distress made them believe they were trans. Ie. trans is a consequence of the root of their problem, not the cause. And you can't prove me wrong.

Breaking children at a young age is inexcusable.

AGREED! No child should be told that their body is wrong. No child should be told that they have to submit to medical procedures in order to make their body right. No child should be lied to that their body can become anything other than what it will inevitably become. No child should be given medical treatments with incredibly heavy, even life-shortening consequences, for false reasons. It is indeed inexcusable.

I hope terfs know that all their campaigning has led to this: young trans men now contemplating the quickest, cheapest way to get surgery they wouldn't otherwise have needed.

Oh no no no. The only ones responsible for that are the TRAs who tell these young women that their happiness depends on cutting their breasts off, and who campaign to prevent anyone from giving proper psychological support to these young women so they can reconcile themselves with their only, healthy body.

No one would be trans unless it meant everything to them. Their lives are too hard.

"No one would be depressed unless it meant everything to them."
"No one would be anorexic unless it meant everything to them."
"No one would be autistic unless it meant everything to them."
"No one would be disabled unless it meant everything to them."
See how stupid that sounds? Just because something is hard, doesn't mean it must be automatically supported and encouraged.

Harassment, violence - not to mention online forums dedicated to discussing their bodies, lives and appearance. Formulating paranoid conspiracy theories about them. Declaring them evil fetishists. Could you cope with that?

Then... Don't make them go through it? Give them proper psychological help so they learn to accept the one and only body they will ever have? Problem solved!

TransParentlyAnnoyed

It is immeasurably cruel to deny these kids the appropriate counselling to help them cope with this - and, further down the line, treatment which will give them time to mature and make decisions later.

Is this the trans affirming counselling which pushes them towards the further treatment.
Or the counselling that allows them come come to terms with their dysphoria.
One is not benificial and the other TRAs want banning.

I'm sorry. This is completely mad. No-one is born trans. Children don't go through the wrong puberty. Some young people have mental distress about their sex or about their body's changes at puberty but creating an endocrine disorder in a healthy body because of mental distress is completely insane.

I live with someone who does, and know how real it is.

Amazing response. I explain (at length, I know) about the reality of being trans - and that's your reply.

Trans people exist, and life isn't easy for them. It would be a lot easier if they weren't trans - but they get on with it, building lives despite horrendous obstacles.

I'm not insane, neither are trans people,neither is my post. If you don't have a better reply than denial and ableism, then...well, enjoy life being ignorant, I guess.

Christ. Empathy, learning and tolerance aren't just words.

The hate emanating from your post is quite something. I'd suggest finding a better hobby than seething about trans people, but I suspect there'd be little left.

You do know that Seethlaw is a transman, and therefore has a more valid opinion than you do, don't you?

Hmm.

You seem to be trapped in this world where you think you are the only person here who has this experience of knowing and living with someone claiming a trans identity.

Why do you think you know better than the rest of us?

What if we are the ones who are right and you've fucked up?

Of course you can't possibly even consider this possibility because this would mean you had harmed your own child. Strangely there's more than a few women (and men) here who have taken the opposite route and their children detransitioned and didn't suffer in the process in the way that you suggest as being an inevitability.

Odd that.

This is a very funny response given who its addressed to.

Thanks for the laugh, TPA!

I have plenty of empathy for those poor children who are lied to and manipulated into thinking that the problems in their lives will disappear if only they harm themselves in definitive manners. I cry for them. I ache for them.

You, on the other hand, I despise for your intellectual dishonesty. I present you with facts, and you can only dismiss all of them because you know I'm right. That's pathetic.

Gender non conforming people exist. What we should be doing is reassuring them that there is no 'right' way to be male or female. They are perfect exactly as they are.

However the idea that they are somehow really rhe opposite sex, are 'living' as the opposite sex, or that everyone should pretend they are the opposite sex is absolutely ludicrous.