How to respond he/she?

[Manchesteruser]

Out with friends. One friend's son has a TIM friend. Obviously male but fake boobs and wearing a dress, about 25. Everyone refers to him 'as she'. I asked one, 'why do you refer to him as 'her/she' rather than 'he' and was told that that was what he prefers.

How would you have responded?

I think that you realistically need to just respect what they ask of you. It’s like calling someone their preferred name.

I literally gave two other examples of the same abusive behaviour - and called them abuse.

Just tells me you have no answer to my basic point, which is that being rude to people isn't activism.

Its not our place to judge how others live their lives. This person isn't hurting anyone. So why should she judge them. You don't have to agree with something, you can still treat people with respect.

Apologies, that last was directed at the genius that is @MagpiePi

I am brilliant with basic technology, yes.

You can be respectful but still judge someone, and you don’t have to express your judgement out loud.

At last - my genius is recognised!!

🥳

No transphobia on Mumsnet. No, none. Never.

And even though I don't believe that it's possible to change sex, I'd call her what she wanted. There's a difference between agreeing with someone on everything, and being purposely, routinely hostile.

Calling trans women men doesn't have anything to do with Having Concerns About Spaces, it's just abusive behaviour.

It has everything to do with single sex spaces. The OP says she was out with friends. What would happen if the TIM wanted to use the toilet and headed towards the ladies'? Would it be OK for the OP to point out to him that he should use the men's?

Sorry, it was sarcasm. See my preceding posts.

But disapproving of someone pretending to be something he's not is different from disapproving of who someone is. Isn't it?

Can you see how this distinction might be relevant in this case?

Even if someone really believes he is something he isn't, politeness and general good sense might lie with the truth rather than support for something plainly false. No?

Suppose I tell you I'm super cool and astonishingly attractive, and that I know all the answers to life's most difficult questions. Will you genuflect towards me, defer to me, tell me I'm lovely, and do whatever I say? Your argument seems to suggest that it would be rude - bordering on abusive - not to do so. Hmm?

I'd never call a man 'she'. It's disrespectful to women and the whole concept of scientific reality and the truth.

How anyone concluded that knowingly lying is either polite or respectful I'll never know. Completely ridiculous.

But pronouns are relatively easy to avoid. Just call him by his name.

What?? I’m not transphobic. I just don’t want to hang around with someone who is clearly unwell. Or their parent/ anyone else who is endorsing it as I think that’s abusive.
I also don’t want to offend so it’s better for me to leave so no chance of causing offence causing offence.
Ideally I’d want to talk to them to try and help them see sense but a night out isn’t really the place is it!

Actually I think that is a comparable example of people not being kind or accepting of each other.
The difference being that ultimately one can be just shrugged off with “oh well, time for some new friends I guess” and move on, no physical damage done.
The other…. you could think exactly the same and then go on to permanently, irreversibly alter your body.

I would argue that the first example isn’t kind. The second…….is kind. Because encouraging and accepting a persons decision to “be trans” is not kind. The opposite. @TransParentlyAnnoyed
You wouldn’t encourage anyone, especially not your child to modify their body by not eating, anorexia. Why do so with permanent body modifications?

I think not wanting to associate with someone just because they are trans, or even leaving a gathering because a trans person is present, is almost as transphobic as it's possible to be, however you choose to justify it to yourself.

Replace the word 'trans' with 'gay' or 'black' and you'll see the problem (or, perhaps more accurately, others might. I expect you never will, as you clearly have a problem with trans people per se).

It's not about being judgemental, it's about not lying to yourself about who/what is in front of your face. Yet again, the jibes and pointed comments come from certain users like transparently. You do you and let OP do her. Look where being kiiiiiiind gets us!!
Personally, I'd avoid pronouns

(Eric Olthwaite's dad faked a bilious attack to get out of situations- maybe OP could be inspired by him?) 😊

I don't see anyone trying to stop anyone from doing anything here.

I see posters openly stating they will not speak to a trans person, or be at the same social gathering as one. About as hostile as it's possible to be without resorting to verbal abuse or violence.

And other posters are saying that's disgusting and transphobic. As most people would, as it's such an extreme way to behave. And now you're trying to shut people down for saying that.

Looks like freedom of choice and freedom of speech only work in one direction.

Oh dear….. I suggest you do some research, reading. Maybe start by watching any you tube content with Helen Joyce or read her book.
Being gay or black is not comparable to being trans. Because being trans is a choice…..the other two are not you just are. and are not unwell as a result.

This is predicated on the idea that being trans is a choice, which is again, transphobic in itself.

I bet in your mind being gay's a choice too?

If you are a man, choosing to present as a woman is a choice. How could it not be?

How we respond to that choice will depend on what degree we believe that man a) feels genuinely more comfortable presenting as a woman or b) is presenting 'woman face' to appropriate / colonise womanhood or feed a fetish.

Personally I believe trans presenting men fall across all of that spectrum.

@AStonedRose what are your thoughts re someone identifying as black? Is that okay?
Or adults pretending to be babies/children?
Or identifying as animals? (Furries)
Are those behaviours inappropriate or totally ok to you?

To me and most other people such behaviour is very inappropriate and clearly a signal the person is not well. Very problematic behaviour.
I wouldn’t be happy to hang around anyone behaving like that (would you?)
Ditto men in dresses.

What about the English guy who decided he was Korean, should we go along with pretending that is true ?

@AStonedRose read my comment again. I said being gay, being black is not a choice.
Being “trans” IS a choice.
Have a read about rapid onset gender dysphoria for its impact on teens especially girls.
No one is born in the wrong body, no one is born “trans”. It’s a choice.
And amongst adult men in particular it’s a fetish.