How to respond he/she?

[Manchesteruser]

Out with friends. One friend's son has a TIM friend. Obviously male but fake boobs and wearing a dress, about 25. Everyone refers to him 'as she'. I asked one, 'why do you refer to him as 'her/she' rather than 'he' and was told that that was what he prefers.

How would you have responded?

Don't want to be confrontational but equally think it'd be uncomfortable to call a man 'she'.

Was this person out with you in the group?

You don’t have to use “she” for a man, and if it might cause conflict to use “he” then you could just use his name. I wouldn’t have asked the question as it’s obvious what the answer is, that they think it’s the right thing to do to appease this man. Which is their choice, but not one that everyone has to conform to.

Yes he was with us and he's very nice. But I don't think it's ok that everyone casually says 'she' when he's a he!

It's not really up to you to dictate how others want to refer to people. You don't have to use she yourself if you don't want to but others are allowed to. They don't need your approval.

I’d probably make excuses and leave tbh. Or stay and be in the group but as far away as possible from him. I’m rubbish at telling lies and being fake or tolerating anyone being fake. I couldn’t cope hearing people encourage this sort of thing.

It's not your job to control how others choose to refer to someone. Why did you even ask, if not to be goady?

What toilets did he use?

Other people are free to hold views you disagree with, given that you are also free to hold views they wouldn’t agree with. That’s the idea of living in a relatively free and still fairly tolerant society. A social night out with people you’ve just met is not really the place to start a debate about gender ideology, unless it’s clear that’s a topic of conversation that everyone is happy with and can discuss without getting upset.

Try to avoid saying the pronouns as much as possible if you can, or even don't talk about him if it's uncomfortable for you. It definitely messes with me to refer to the trans identified man I know as "she" but I try to make it so I am using pronouns as little as possible. Often times without thinking I'll simply call this person "they" tbh, as if my mind can't pick which side to go on.

It's very much a mind fuck but because of the context in which I interact with this person, I do not bring up my views.

If you do want to fight about it, do it very softly, as if you are just curious just by asking a few questions rather than stating your position.

If it keeps the peace just say she.

I mean years back i was oh ffs not all this crap again, now im kinda you know what it just words.
If you want me to call you she, he , fox or toad just tell me and it will its easier.
I dont have a problem with any of it.

I'd have been polite, respectful and used her name.

It's really not difficult to be a decent person and not abuse strangers in public.

It's about being abusive, not disrespectful.

After my mum remarried (50 years or so back) certain people refused to call her by her new surname. Some wouldn't speak to her at all, and one born-again Christian mum of one of my friends told me she'd burn in hell for being divorced. I'll let you imagine how they treated a local lesbian couple who had kids.

Abusing people is always a choice, however you choose to excuse it.

I'd suggest you take some time to get to know your friend's friend, and realise they're a perfectly normal person who happens to be trans. Once you get to know them, you'll find it second-nature to use her name and pronouns, because you'll see her as a person. you

This really is your problem, not hers. It's worth trying to overcome it for your own sake.

I was taught not to lie.

This, they all creep me out far too much, I just don't want to be around people pandering to a man like that.
It bothers me less being at protests where they are as then I'm with like minded others.

Would you be 'uncomfortable' if someone referred to you as a 'he' when you preferred 'she'? Do you expect your 'comfort' to be respected?

Do unto others…?

Social conventions aren't supposed to be political statements or 'truth statements'. They are just a way of using politeness to enable social cohesion in social settings. Same way I don't need to lose my shit if a bloke opens a door for me because I'm a feminist. And the same way I don't need to tell the 'truth' about how I am when they politely ask.

There's a time & place for political protest/truth telling/free speech & it isn't family & social get togethers. And anyone who thinks it is doesn't deserve to live in civilised society.

I won't use wrong sex pronouns myself, but really, most of the time, I don't find it necessary to use pronouns at all.
If someone is physically there, I wouldn't be talking about them in front of them without including them anyway, and if for any reason I did need to, I'd use their name. " Oh, where's Julie suddenly gone?" Type thing.
I won't lie, but I won't be rude either.

I’d refer to him and address him by his chosen name (I changed my name at 18 due to hating it, so can’t really argue that people shouldn’t choose their own name if they want to!), but I wouldn’t use “she” or join in the pretence of him being a woman.

If challenged I’d be polite about it, but just say that I’m gender critical, don’t believe it’s possible to change sex, and so I consider “Julie” to be a man.

If that led to a row or nastiness I’d just shrug, say “well I disagree but there’s no point arguing about it, I’ll head off now so you can get on with the night without distractions” and then just leave with a cheerful smile and wave.

But then I’m in my 50s, give zero fucks, and am just as happy to head home and watch strictly rather than be out. I think it’s a much harder situation for younger women tbh.

After my mum remarried (50 years or so back) certain people refused to call her by her new surname. Some wouldn't speak to her at all, and one born-again Christian mum of one of my friends told me she'd burn in hell for being divorced. I'll let you imagine how they treated a local lesbian couple who had kids.

Calling a man 'he' is hardly comparable to this.

You said this person was lovely. Call them by their name and don't be judgemental.

There's a time & place for political protest/truth telling/free speech & it isn't family & social get togethers. And anyone who thinks it is doesn't deserve to live in civilised society.

When in the presence of someone who is clearly struggling mentally, let's all just ignore it, go along with his delusion because that's what's easy for us. That way we don't have to interrupt our lives, we don't have to deal with a hard thing, we're not bothered in our lives in anyway whatsoever, and that's all that counts.

Because it's someone else's problem right.

Err, its just a social gathering of acquaintances not an intervention. How would you like a virtual stranger charging upto you publicly imposing their non expert uninvited medical 'advice'?

Who's really struggling 'mentally' here isn't who you think it is.

So no one is allowed to judge a deluded young man and all the people colluding in his delusion, but @Manchesteruser who doesn’t want to go along with that delusion must be judged to fuck?

You’ve certainly drunk all the #BeKiiiiind KoolAid.

‘

Yeah, it is. Being rude because you don't approve of who someone is, isn't anything other than abuse.

Calling trans women men doesn't have anything to do with Having Concerns About Spaces, it's just abusive behaviour.

The people who condemned my mum, and the lesbian couple, thought they were righteous and pointing out the obvious too.

Being rude to people is not a public service.

Interesting how disagreeing or being rude is ramped up to actual abuse when it comes to trans issues.