What's the deal guys?

[shadesOfTeal]

I don't think this post is going to last long but what's the deal with hating trans women so much? I've been a women for 13 years of my life since 18 and it's never been a problem. Suddenly I'm not only talk of the town but also an evil man stealing everyone's rights away from them? I wasn't much of a boy as a kid anyway but. I just wanted to ask like what's the deal? Why do you hate the idea of me existing so much? What have I personally done to you that's been so bad? I feel like I need to be careful with my words because it'll be easy to accuse me of all sorts but I've done no harm to anyone. If you want to ask a trans woman some honest questions then please do, I don't usually talk about it in my day to day life and that, I'm pretty down to earth and will help you understand as much as possible. But I'd like to ask the people that hate me so much, can we ever get along? Please don't assume I'm what the internet and the media says I am though, I'm not like that at all! I just want us all to get on and I'm sick of having my life debated every 5 minutes.

Here it is again! I just found it online, I don't 'do' AI - a mixture of ethics and laziness😄but I usually find a fun image already exists online if I use the right search terms.
This one was in admiration of Hedgey taking on women's and girls' charities who are not doing what they say on the tin.

A call to all wims to challenge registered charities who claim to be women’s services who include “transwomen” | Mumsnet

sex realism is not 'female perspective.' Yes, you have a 'female perspective' but it is so far from 'the female perspective' as no such thing exists on this topic.

You're not making much sense in this post.

that is one cool hedgehog

preens my spines and wiggles my shades…..

I dont understand must be something to do with being an adult human female, please explain.

Ah, I can explain that one. It's the direct consequence of your own "side"'s actions, actions which I wouldn't describe as "sadism" (being, you know, a rational adult), but that I do think it's fair to call exceptionally cruel. These forced women into the very corner you're now condemning. Honestly, when this is all over, I'll never be short of examples to explain irony.

Think about this logically.

If we call "trans women" what they are - "trans women" - then they retain the ability to name and advocate for themselves, and women retain the ability to name and advocate for themselves...

This is how things used to be, and it worked OK. We all muddled along quite nicely for a while.

...But if "trans women" take the word "women", then the people who used to use this word, for millennia, across the world, can no longer name and advocate for themselves as a distinct group.

If you're not sure who I mean by this group then, I think, you've make my point very well indeed.

If you do know (and let's face it, we both know you do), then you'll also know that I mean the people who only just got the vote (not even a century yet) and who were only just recognised as autonomous beings in their own right, as opposed to extensions of their partner's mind and bodies, in recent decades really (the right to open a bank account? the right to resist marital rape?)

And yet it didn't stop there. Trans women labelled "adult human female" transphobic, and even began to claim "female" (Dr Upton, in court, FFS!)

So, what could women do? They were losing any language necessary to even come close to even expressing their concerns, let alone to argue their case. And this in a context in which, to pick just two devastating examples of thousands, they continued to be 70% or so more likely to be severely injured in a car accident in western countries, and are effectively gagged in public spaces in Afghanistan.

It was clear. Those of us arguing for our sex-based rights increasingly felt that they had no choice left but to be absurdly, exhaustingly, infuriatingly explicit. And not to give an inch on this - not. a. single. inch.

Btw, a significant proportions of posters here started out calling you "women", or at least "trans women". I know I did. You know what changed our minds? Puerile posts like yours above revealing the total paucity of the arguments for giving up our word, and the consequences of so doing.

So keep posting, by all means. I wouldn't advise it, personally, but I'd never deny a group the right to speak for and about themselves.

Because, to me, to do so is the ultimate act of oppression.

👏

Excellent hedgehog, Marie. Very Arnie.

I do appreciate your posts. With certain nuances, I do align and agree with everything you have written. As someone whose 'characteristic of gender reassignment' (which honestly has not impacted my life in so very long) is caught up in sex realism's radar though, I am going to continue to see and understand the lack of nuance in its overarching arguments, and well, disagree with its goals.

I am assuming that the translation of this is, in essence, 'yeah but imma do what I want ok thanks'.

Pretty much, yes. As I have done for my entire life (in so far as my personal reaction to sex realism claims it has control over anyone's life)

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tells ya.

Just never try to kid yourself that the support humans don't object. Or that you're anything other than an entitled man doing what entitled men always do.

I do appreciate your posts. With certain nuances, I do align and agree with everything you have written.

I am going to continue to see and understand the lack of nuance in its overarching arguments, and well, disagree with its goals.

Transactivism in a nutshell.

"You're right of course everything you say is true, you are losing the word with which to describe your sex. And I disagree with you trying to retain that word because what I want is more important".

Even when a trans person tries to be civil and genuinely reach out to ask questions, you can always count on anti-trans gender criticals to resort to petty insults and bad faith arguments.

I'm looking for a trans person trying to be civil.....mmmm....nope, can't see one

I think you must have a different definition of 'civil' and 'genuine' - this thread started with accusations of hate, before we'd even opened our mouths!

The era of ‘NO DEBATE’ has finally ended…we’ve got our voice’s back and will never endure another silencing.

Well said.

Thank you Catiette. Another excellent post.

Unfortunately, quite a few of us have been explaining this for threads. As with your last great post, almost point for point has been explained. Some with patience and others not.

The result was exactly the same as you have received.

Along with implausible doubling down about how the poster is ‘female’ and all the misogynist reasons why.

The expressed fascination about why women are ‘sadistically’ saying male people are male people is not good faith. Because for threads posters have been pointing out the need for truth and accuracy in language and why it is important. The result is always the same as the reaction you have got.

In fact, our efforts have now been described as being driven by dopamine hits. It is just dismissal after dismissal.

The thing is, of course, everytime one of us posts something carefully explaining why male people are not female people and the harm that comes to female people with this acquisition of language, someone new reads it and thinks more deeply. So thank you again.

This is just it Datun. I reckon we are stuck in the rinse and repeat cycle now.

The script is known. After cycle after cycle, I think the accusation of a ‘dopamine hit’ is pure projection.

The ‘nuance’ that is sought is and has been clear from the start with some of these male people. We see it on social media too.

It is the nuance of ‘I am special’ and you can’t deny me what I demand.

The ‘I agree that over that there are clearly bad faith male people saying that they are women. I am not one of them, I am special in some way. Let me tell you why I am special [insert reasons here]… I cannot be treated like those other male people, I am the exception’ type of nuance.

The nuance sought is ‘but I am special so allow me to bypass your consent’.

The thing is each male claiming that they have some reason to be allowed to be included over others, is still a male person seeking to bypass female people’s consent and trying to find that legitimate reason to do so. And when their legitimate reasons keep failing, they don’t just accept it and find an alternative solution for their needs that doesn’t potentially harm female people (individually or collectively), they respond with the opposite.

They respond with the power play. The ‘I am going to continue anyway’ come back.

Ultimately, getting to tell female people that they, as male people, will continue to ignore all the facts and the harm being described must be a powerful thing to do. Having woman after woman articulate all the valid reasons why and still saying ‘I am going to do it anyway and I will get away with it’ is powerful stuff.

Sorry. Dodgy edit.

“The ‘I agree that over that there are clearly bad faith male people saying that they are women.”

Should be

The ‘I agree that there are clearly bad faith male people saying that they are women.

I think this is your straw man speaking again.

I'm nuance-free team all trans women are women as long as sex realism maintains no nuance. I may not understand all transwomen, I may not even agree with them, but it seems only fair.

The issue is that the trans umbrella was extended to anyone who claimed a female identity and expected bio women to just accept any person who said they were a woman in our safe spaces with any protests labelled bigotry

We have shared spaces with trans women for decades - these trans women looked just like women and they didnt get changed in front of us. They just quietly got on with things and were by and large accepted.

Then came the Tra's and the concept of self id and the idea that requiring someone to actually look or act female was gatekeeping womanhood. A 50 year old bloke with a beard but wearing a dress and some lipstick also wanted to come in the womens changing rooms and if you objected you were called a biggot. Rapists like isla bryson were put in women's prisons because they said they were female (and it is only because we kicked up a stink that he was taken out - the scottish government would have happily left him there otherwise). Places where woman were vulnerable were no longer safe as any man could claim he was female and come on in

Suddently transwomen rather than blending in were deliberately standing out and challenging any woman who was uncomfortable with them being there.

I have every sympathy with people like Jazz Jennings who is someone that i would clearly deem a trans person and i personally wouldnt have issues with being in the ladies as they have had full gender reassignment. Lily Tino or someone who looks like the ice hockey shooter though can jog the fuck on

Basically the tra's pushed too far and women pushed back.