"A woman who is trans"

[AllThisFuss]

I've been noticing this terminology creeping in. Just thought I might highlight it, so we can keep up to date with their ever-changing attempts to control language and muddy the waters. Have you seen any in the wild?

IndiaWilloughby
‪@indiawilloughby.bsky.social‬
Not a mention of the woman who’s trans, who did nothing wrong. This ruling is in direct conflict with the Gender Recognition Act. How is this happening? It is wrong on every level, and will be used to push trans people even further out of society and into danger

I unfortunately know first hand what happens when there is a safeguarding failure. I think I’m struggling with this because I’ve spent a lot of time reading and understanding your position. I agree we don’t change sex and from there it naturally flows that we don’t have rights on the basis of being female. I’ve also seen how dangerous some trans women are and don’t think they should be anywhere near women. I don’t have an argument for why I should access female spaces and since FWS have felt increasingly bad about what I’m doing. On the other hand, I have well meaning friends and family telling me to using female spaces because I’m a woman. As much as I want to agree with them I know I’m different and that’s okay. I guess I’ve been posting here to try convince myself you’re all wrong.

I wish more places had gender neutral/fourth spaces because I would use them if they existed. I know some of you won’t understand this, but I don’t feel like I can use male spaces at this point.

You want to do it, so you do it. Feeling bad is not enough.

This is why lying, about anything, is so corrosive. Lying to yourself is absolutely the worse thing you can do.

You’re a man, you want to present ‘as a woman’ I’ve no idea why and it’s none of my business. But you know it’s a falsehood, a misrepresentation.

As for friends and family telling you you’re a woman. Well that’s what comes of society buying into a mass delusion. They know you’re not a woman but they think they’re being kind. They’re not, because you shouldn’t lie to your friends and family.

These ‘well meaning’ people are simply helping you to build this house of cards that will fall. A man cannot live in this world as a woman. There are stable categories for a reason. What happens if tomorrow we pretend age isn’t real? That’s no different from pretending that men can be women.

There’s no right or wrong way to be a man or a woman. If you’re a very effeminate man so what? Be you. But stop doing what you’ve outlined here - making yourself unacceptable in your own estimation in male facilities (I bet it wouldn’t actually be a problem) and therefore wrongly using women’s spaces.

I don’t know where you are but I see unisex/gender neutral spaces pretty much everywhere now.

You cant use female spaces as that makes them a mixed sex space.

If you and the TRA spent the time and money lobbying for a fourth space you could have had a place to use.

But that is still not happening and the West is becoming more aware of the conflict of rights.

Judges will not be allowed give away womens spaces to men feel they who cant use the mens space.

Politicians will talk a good game but if its reelection or telling voters that men should be allowed into the womens and being voted out most will pick the vote.

Your hope of winning cases is only going to make the public more aware of the problems if men win access.

At the end of the day most men know that they dont want the women the know in spaces with at lest one of the men they know.

And the nurses case was the women having to prove they did not have contractual obligation to provide a strip show.

So win or loose the cases will only draw attention to the demand to break the social contract.

You break the social contract in your daily life and enter womens spaces and you may never be told directly but it is noticed and that breach creates a level of distrust.

It is clear that you dont understand the problem and also understand but you dont care. The dont care bit is what women spot and remember.

I don’t have an argument for why I should access female spaces and since FWS have felt increasingly bad about what I’m doing.

So stop

Because in using women's spaces, you are a predatory man who doesn't respect the law or the principle of women's consent.

Take responsibility.

Even with everything that’s happened, I would still choose to transition if I had to do it over again. I was incredibly depressed and withdrawn before because I wasn’t happy in my body, but since transitioning my life has become a 1000x better. I’m no longer depressed and have managed a build a life with meaning and had experiences I never would’ve had if I didn’t transition. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that it never felt like a real choice and just being a feminine man doesn’t feel right to men. Staying as it was no longer seemed like an option. In hindsight, I wish I tried therapy to see if I could accept myself That didn’t seem like an option at the time, but luckily things worked out for me.

I logically know I’d probably be fine using the male faculties, but the idea fills me with dread and feels undignified.

I do want to be better about being open and proud of who I am. I think I’d be a lot better off for it.

You should be excluding yourself.

Indeed you do. You have the same right to a single sex space as everyone else. It's just that your sex is male and what you WANT is the right to use the single sex spaces of the OPPOSITE sex. No one has that right.

This only refered to transmen who - in rare cases - have had so much testosterone/surgery that they may cause distress to traumatised women in rape or DV shelters as for example. It is well understood that testosterone is so powerful that transmen often "pass" far better than transwomen and for much the same reason. The effects of testosterone cause massive changes that cannot be reversed.

You have no experience of being a woman confronted by a man in a female single sex space. You can't have. But know now, that women will not challenge you in those circumstances in case you turn nasty. This does not mean they don't see you for what you are. In other circumstances many women will pretend in order to be kind to you. Female socialisation at work. Something else you have no experience of.

I don’t have an argument for why I should access female spaces and since FWS have felt increasingly bad about what I’m doing.

A woman is going to feel vulnerable if she encounters a man in what is supposed to be a female only space. No matter what he is wearing.

A man is not going to feel vulnerable if he encounters another man in a male only space. No matter what he is wearing.

So why are you putting women in this position when you have a choice not to? No wonder you feel bad about it. You should feel bad and you should stop.

Perhaps your well meaning loved ones also don’t understand consent. Because consent, in this aspect, is not transferable.

Not one of your loved ones can give consent for all female people. And if you are in a female single sex provision and you are not female, even one female person not consenting to you being there means you are causing that female person harm. Intentionally or unintentionally, you have just ignored the consent of that female person.

If it was not a publicly accessible provision, and every female person using that provision gave consent with full knowledge of what they were consenting to, that would be fine. But this is not the case.

Maybe this video is helpful.

https://x.com/knownheretic/status/2006208789578391667?s=46

And even though I posted this link pages ago, this really makes it clear.

https://x.com/knownheretic/status/2006188958586380420?s=46

This video strips away the emotional reasoning that some
male people use to give themselves permission to access female single sex provisions when they have no right to do so at all.

Sure it would be nice to have a mixed sex alternative, however this is not always the case. You tried to leverage female people with transgender identities into the discussion upthread for another purpose, however, you can take a leaf out of the approach some
of them take. Some of them have come to MN and have told us what they do.

They take the time to plan their trips outside of their homes. They fully acknowledge their choices to change their bodies and understand that they also have not got consent to enter male single sex provisions which removes male people’s right to privacy and dignity. They also understand that it is not up to businesses and organisations to have to provide a separate mixed sex facility because of their personal choices about body modification.

They have networked and developed communication groups to share data and there is a private searchable site that means they can plan where they access toilets. They have taken responsibility to work out alternative solution for themselves. It might mean using the shop or cafe next door’s mixed sex toilet.

If all male people who rejected using the male single sex provision grouped together to do this, it would mean the information would be accessible to you all. From what we hear directly from those who have also told us here on MN FWR (and their friends who are mentioning them) that there is a large group of male people with transgender identities don’t use female single sex provisions. So, they also go out of their way to use mixed sex solutions

Well yes. Ones usually wearing a dress and accessing female spaces. That’s the only difference.

Just to be clear also, no one should be making accessing a female single sex provision a ‘reward’ for a male person to achieve in any way. Not through surgery, not through being good enough in any way or sense, not through working hard enough.

No male person who has had extreme body modification should be accessing female single sex provisions. Because those modifications didn’t change a thing about whether that male person was male or not.

There should never be an expectation that a male person who undergoes body modification has achieved anything like being a female person, a woman or a girl. That modification has only changed one thing about that male person.

A male person with extreme body modification is a male person with an extreme body modification.

That is the abiding reality that the specific change makes. You cannot change material reality and the material reality is that no human changes sex and gender identity is like any other belief in identity that doesn’t reflect material reality.

No is a complete sentence.

The law says no.

I say no. And no one else gets to consent for me.

any man who enters women’s spaces where he should not be post-the SC judgement doesn’t understand consent and doesn’t think he should have to obey the law.

I have to have a hysterectomy. I never present as female. When I have my hysterectomy will I be a man?

And I can always tell.

it’s not just about the dress and the make up.

it’s about. Their hands. Their gate. Their jaw line. Their Adam’s apple. And just my internal cognition that they are a man and I can tell.

We transmen can't have a male perspective, by definition. We're female, so any perspective we have is necessarily female.

I know that a lot of transmen think of themselves as male, but they are deluded. How can we be male, when we don't have a male body and we haven't received a male socialisation? All we know about being male is, for example, what using male spaces as a woman who presents as a man feels like; that's still an inherently female experience.

Oh please have this courtcase. I would love the European Court of Human Rights state very clearly that countries can have a legal system that acknowledges and protects both sex as well as gender identity and women are a distinct legal group based on biological sex.
I can guarantee that feminists in all countries with self id will initiate court cases in their countries within weeks to change the laws there based on the outcome.

Or the court states sex is of no relevance and women as a sex class do not legally exist and women will all realise how much they have been screwed over and the sufragette movement will start all over again.

Basically, you need to understand that regardless of outcome, women will never accept you in their spaces or sports. You can try no debate, you can try enforcement, you can try court cases, you can say some women don't mind so the rest should just shut up, but there will always be a very large group working against your presence in their spaces and sports. You are on a never win road here, mate.

Yet you push a cost of your feeling of wellbeing on to women who have a right not to be forced choose between a mixed sex space or being totally pushed out.

You choosing that is clear on this thread.

I logically know I’d probably be fine using the male faculties, but the idea fills me with dread and feels undignified.

Get help for that through counselling. You don't have the right to foist those feelings onto women instead.

Whatever differences you think there might be are irrelevant. When it comes to single sex spaces, sex is the deciding factor. A man and a ‘fully transitioned’ transwoman are both male. It makes no difference to women what these males are wearing, what thoughts and beliefs are inside their heads, or what cosmetic surgery they’ve had. They’re are all male and therefore don’t belong in women’s spaces.

Stealthing is illegal in relationships.

if we allow it to access single sex spaces then that protection is weakened.

see also the consent violation.

How would you decide which members of your community access women's spaces?
Yourself, obviously. But what makes you different from another TW who doesn't pass? Who can't afford treatment or has medical reasons why he can't be treated? Or doesn't pass despite treatment?
Or who has only today started his 'journey' so looks as much a man as he did yesterday, despite 'knowing he's a woman' just as strongly as you do? Surely they have as much right to be in the women's as you?
And if we say, yes, yes, knowing you're a woman is the golden key, we have male women and female women, and the male women are those who say they are, then how is it possible to protect those spaces from any man who claims he's a male woman, but whose appearance and behaviour in that space may intimidate and harm the women its intended for?
Genuinely interested in your view on that.

I just say men in dresses, because that's what they are.