"A woman who is trans"

[AllThisFuss]

I've been noticing this terminology creeping in. Just thought I might highlight it, so we can keep up to date with their ever-changing attempts to control language and muddy the waters. Have you seen any in the wild?

IndiaWilloughby
‪@indiawilloughby.bsky.social‬
Not a mention of the woman who’s trans, who did nothing wrong. This ruling is in direct conflict with the Gender Recognition Act. How is this happening? It is wrong on every level, and will be used to push trans people even further out of society and into danger

The switch in language between Transwoman and woman who is Trans is just another attempt to utilize intersectionality ie white woman, black woman, disabled woman, Transwoman. They're now just using that same principle but the words are in a different order ie woman who is white, woman who is black, woman who is disabled,, woman who is Trans.

This. It's so offensive - in the original proper meaning of offensive.

I logically know I’d probably be fine using the male faculties, but the idea fills me with dread and feels undignified.

Says it all. No thought for the dread or dignity of the women for whom the spaces are actually for.

Yep, acknowledges that using the gents would be fine but prefers to harm women. What a charmer

Anyone else remember Jack

https://archive.is/KSi0W

the subject of this linked thread :

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5355097-the-guardian-trans-australian-kicked-out-of-toilet?page=1

Who is living proof that a male person with a transgender identity can use male toilets every day without issue. Yet only when he puts on a dress, he uses the female toilet. And his female friends enable and protect him doing so, ignoring that other women don’t consent.

The reality is that he has a transgender identity and is safe in male toilets as he uses them all other times. He uses female toilets for validation.

There is, of course, a significant issue that some male people over confidently believe that few people will correctly identify their sex This myth is perpetuated by people who love that male person. Those who willingly tell a male person that they pass do so much harm, not just to women and children who then end up with those male people using female language and demanding access to female single sex provisions.

The male person is also harmed. Because how can they trust their own judgement after being told lies and how can they trust those that they love to be honest with them. But this is the crux of these gender identities being treated as materially real. It is, of course, based on queer theory and post modernist theory where if you say you are a woman, you are.

And so it is left to strangers to either bluntly discuss the truth or to keep that male person in their comfort bubble. I have yet to see even in videos a male person who ‘passes’. Some may until you then see them in real life I guess. Or you see them beside a woman.

Any male person who is questioned in a male toilet can always answer the question. The voice so often allows correct is identification.

I am also finding there is a myth around puberty blockers. These video clips of Pepper-Jackson at the moment are supposed to be of a boy who had very early puberty blockage. He is very clearly a teenaged boy. It is like Schafer, I notice no one posts pics of him many more either as a gotcha. I guess they realised he is so obviously male without the styling and the make up.

People are being sold lies and it is the opposite of kind.

There's passing and passing.

Someone may be unnoticeable in the supermarket, but stand out in a women only space.

I think trans people focus on features they think make them pass, and ignore every other feature. A few men say that they cant use men's spaces because they have breast, but if everything else about him screams man, women won't see breast and think woman, they'll think male. If they notice the breast at all. Its probably the same for men in mens spaces too.

I think on some level, they know this. When men say that they are trans, they are saying to everyone around them that they want to be treated as if they are women, not saying the have a 'trans history'.

People are being sold lies and it is the opposite of kind.

Totally agree with this

And I have not come across a single 'transwoman' who genuinely passes, when you take into account movement and voice.

Who in the public eye would people point to as an example?

I also think that some male people think that if people don’t notice them in passing glances that is ‘passing’ too.

Yet, I notice it when I see how they walk, it is not just hip alignment, it is their arm proportions and their posture.

It was like the bare chest protests. If anything, those men protesting just showed male chests with breasts. Their chests are distinctly male. I don’t think these male people even register the difference. To them, the presence of breasts is all that they focus on.

’Near enough is good enough’ is what I think they believe. Because they have brought into the fallacy spread by others that there are ‘masculine’ women too. But those women with ‘masculine’ features are still within the range identifiably female. It really is crap the harm some people do to others when they are being dishonest in the name of ‘kindness’.

It's more than just kindness. It's also habit. Once you categorise someone as trans and start wilingly using opposite sex pronouns for them, you can get used to seeing them as some version of that opposite sex - maybe not quite akin to the people natal to that sex, but "close enough" for practical purposes.

I know it happened to me when I was in the community, and it came as a huge shock when I realised that the transwomen I'd come to think passed well enough, did not in fact pass at all

So I can believe that supportive loved ones end up truly thinking that someone passes.

I also think that some male people think that if people don’t notice them in passing glances that is ‘passing’ too.

Completely agree. Have often seen it said on trans media "I walked past X number of people in the street and no one noticed I'm trans". Really??

Firstly - you can't see into someone's head to know what they're thinking!

Secondly - I barely registered the appearance of the people I walked past in the street just now, unless they had a stand-out feature like a nice coat or something.

People are too busy thinking about their work/what they're going to have for tea/what they watched on TV last night/the meeting with their boss.
They aren't thinking about you!

Plus - never in my life has anyone ever come up to me in the street to say "you're a woman". Why do TIMs think it's validation if random strangers don't actually tell them they're a man?

That is something I have wondered Seethlaw, if it is a learned inability. Learned through conditioning and determination to be kind.

We have so many people who claim they cannot tell. I suspected that they either are not being honest (either deliberately or through learned behaviour for example) or they are part of a small group who cannot recognise sexed body cues. For example, there are some people with vision problems who are obviously part of that group if they cannot clearly see a person.

Oh I see. You’re one of those that believe you can always tell. I can tell you from experience that is not always the case.

One example of many: I helped a man at the library. He was a tall, quite stout (but I would not say hulking) short back and sides man in a 1950's day dress. I helped him find what he was looking for. I did not stand on my chair and point and scream "sexual deviant!". I helped him and treated him politely because that is how people behave. Possibly he went home thinking he passed. That's not on me.

It was interesting to watch the video on the other thread of the woman at Oxford challenging the two TIM in the women's toilets. The two had clearly pulled out all the stops, surgery, make up, clothes and hair and had youth on their side. But it was still...obvious. Just as it was obvious that the women who were gender non conforming in the same video were women.

ThatOpalTurtle: I don’t have an argument for why I should access female spaces and since FWS have felt increasingly bad about what I’m doing.

There are many arguments for why you should not access female spaces, of course. Have you thought at all about the effect you are having on every woman who is sharing that space with you? I once glimpsed a man in a public toilet and exited quickly. But every time I use a public loo now, I think that there may well be a man in there. Every time. My hand is on the door and the worry goes through my mind.

Think of all the women who happened to use the toilet at the same time as you. How many? Each one of them might be carrying around that worry now when they use public toilets. Worry that their dignity, privacy, and consent might be violated, again. Every time. I think you should consider not doing this to women.

I don't wish to be unkind but your discomfort in the Men's is your issue for you to overcome.

I remember finding or hearing in passing (the other sort of passing) about some research on people who use face filters, the upshot of it being that they come to believe that the filtered image they become accustomed to seeing is the reality. I can't remember or find anything about it but it did stick in my mind for probably obvious reasons.
Other people believing they cannot tell is a sort of mirror of that.

I don't know quite what the men who believe they are women expect as an indication that they don't passt. I am 5'7" which I gather is tallish for a woman, but the ones I have seen are complete units, absolutely huge* compared to me, in several dimensions and very obviousy not tall women. It would not be in my best interests to go chasing after them calling out "You're a manly mannity man" would it? Or challenge them in an enclosed space. Dear me no.

*not the only thing that made them obvious

Yeah. The 'I am not a hulking man' is no reason to think that a male person passes. Even the slightest build male has the musculature, skeletal proportions and the skull structure of a male person.

I can very much imagine though that people who use facial filters would also carry that image with them in real life. Particularly, like we have seen in past threads, where you have male people who from a young age had family and friends tell them what they wanted to hear about 'passing'.

And then there are those people who keep repeating on threads about their absolutely stunningly beautiful male friends that 'no one' would ever know was male. That they didn't so how could anyone else. I just think these people have fully brought into the myth and seek to enforce others compliance as well.

Thank you for picking up on this trend.

Yeah? And what's that?

One says he's a woman and so pushes himself into women's spaces (as in women's toilets, women's shelters, women's prisons, women's changing rooms, women's rape groups, women's only sections of hospital wards, women's political positions, women's breastfeeding groups, women's sporting events, women's only forums + apps etc. etc.) and the other one doesn't.

You have to accept, that no amount of extreme bodily modifications, cross sex hormones or ~womanly feelz~, will ever turn a man (an adult of the male sex class0, into a woman (a female of the adult sex class).

Nothing you say, will ever justify bypassing the consent of woman and girls, which is, what you do, every single time you enter our spaces.

@ThatOpalTurtle

Remember when you said you never talk about being trans or anything. That it's not very relevant to your life. Implying that you passed seamlessly and everyone thinks you're a woman?

And yet here you are, in a predominantly female space, talking about nothing but.

Because that male socialisation ever passes. So you talk about how you logically know nothing is wrong with using the men's, how you feel bad about using women's, how you can't wait for the GLP case to come to fruition, etc, etc. All about you being trans.

None of this is the experience of a woman, none of it.

There are loads of gender neutral toilets you can use, and there are apps showing you where the nearest one is. You literally have a service dedicated to it. There's nothing wrong with planning your journey to accommodate your biological needs.

For the love of God, women have had to be doing that for years. Finding places we can breastfeed, finding toilets to accommodate a pram, etc, etc.

But I suspect the actual experience of a female isn't one that appeals to you.

Edited to add that when men say they have to use the women's facilities, we all know it's not the facilities. You have facilities you can use. It's the women in them. You are utilising women as an entire sex category, to satisfy your own validation and desires.

Which of the two sexes does that remind you of?

@Helleofabore Yeah. The 'I am not a hulking man' is no reason to think that a male person passes. Even the slightest build male has the musculature, skeletal proportions and the skull structure of a male person.

I'm reminded of the actor Hunter Schafer, who, despite being on cross sex hormones as a teenager and having a slender build, is still "clockable" as hell, especially when pictured alongside an actual woman (his sister).

https://x.com/schaferfiles/status/1896875759136113094

This.

Yes. Even with the hair hanging to hide his profile and hiding his hands. As usual, these male people require poses that seek to hide or obscure body cues. He is very often presented as a 'gotcha' by those who seem oblivious to the very obvious male body cues.

In saying that....

https://x.com/BriannaWu/status/1793010889592860731?s=20

"If you want more Hunter Schafers, you should support access to puberty blockers."

I remember this tweet from Wu. It is horrific in its meaning. And Wu is someone who uses very heavy filters. Very heavy indeed.

And it follows a tweet:

"Now that’s a woman." from Richard Hanania. .... Yeah... ok, mate. What a misogynist.

Would you notice a trans woman that passes?

They don’t pass.

and stealthing is illegal.