GLP are suing Virgin Active

[ByGreatGreenWriter]

https://goodlawproject.org/were-suing-virgin-active-over-their-transphobic-rules/

“So we’re taking legal action. We are representing two claimants who are members of Virgin Active gyms and who have been subject to discrimination solely because they are trans.

According to Virgin’s new policy, both of them can no longer use facilities like the pool and sauna because they can only be reached by going through either the men’s or women’s changing rooms.“

If true that sounds like discrimination?

It’s pretty hard to parse the information in the linked article given the topsy turvy way it’s written, but it seems to boil down to the two people not wanting to use the facilities for their sex, rather than being told they can’t use the facilities at all.

Presumably they aren't being stopped from swimming, they are just refusing to use the changing room of their correct sex? So not using either the male or female space?

Another loss incoming for GLP if so. Virgin are obeying the law.

Have they been told they’re barred from using the facilities for their sex? If not, there’s no issue here and it’ll just be another example of GLP pissing its funds up the wall.

I don’t see an issue if the sauna can be accessed through both the male and the female changing room. Just pick the changing room according to your sex, and enter through there 🤷

How is that discrimination?

If they are male, however they identify, they get to the pool and sauna through the men's changing room. If they are female, through the women's changing room.

Males certainly shouldn't be going through a space where women and girls are undressed.

Why can't they just walk through the changing room of their sex? Like everyone of their sex should.

I do agree mainly, being told you can't join cos you're trans is discrimination due to being trans.

But there is discrimination on GR if you are telling a TW to use the men's because it's reasonable that he won't feel as comfortable using it as a man without a made up identity (and possibly surgery), and is more likely to be subjected to unwanted behaviour from the other men.

So they do have a duty to give trans people facilities where they would expect to feel comfortable and safe. Gender neutral or single user facilities do that.

The solution is not to use the women's facilities.

Virgin Active folded immediately, putting a changing room and bathroom ban on trans people across all 43 of their gyms in the UK.

That is materially untrue, isn't it?
I bet tons of people use their "bathrooms" who don't feel they have a gender identity that aligns with their sex.

Why do they just.... lie? Do they not think they'd have a case if they were truthful?

But there is discrimination on GR if you are telling a TW to use the men's

The male changing rooms are for male men and women and NB people (if you consider "men and women" to be determined by inner gender identity) and the female ones for female men and women. So why would they have a problem with single-sex, mixed-gender facilities? If that even is what they're asked to do... hard to tell from GLP's muddled wording.

Why do you think trans women would feel comfortable sharing a space with men? The solution here isn’t just forcing them into the mens

What’s the issue here? Surely they can enter via the changing room for their biological sex?

This idea that trans identifying men will get hassled by other men in the changing rooms is just nonsense. As long as they don’t make a song and dance of things, but just get on with changing like every other man in there does, then nobody will say a thing.

Blokes do NOT look at other men whilst changing, it’s absolutely the opposite. The unwritten rule is that you don’t look / stare. So trans identifying men don’t need a third space. They just need to crack on using the area reserved for their sex.

If the other men in the men’s changing rooms are hostile, that should be addressed with them. No trans person should be made to feel unwelcome or like they don’t belong in the space for their sex, no matter how they present.

Very interesting reasoning. Do any lawyers on here have a view?

So you don't give a fuck about how women and girls feel - OK. At last Virgin are following the law. As for GLP - grifters gotta grift

It’s not just a matter of safety or feeling welcome. I don’t see how a trans man or woman would feel comfortable sharing a space with someone of their sex when they’ve going to such lengths because that don’t identify that way

Why wouldn't they feel comfortable in the male changing rooms, do you think? I'm sure most men would just arch their eyebrows and then quietly get on with it.

Why would you think that women might feel comfortable changing with a man dressed or 'presenting' as a woman? Personally, I'd find it far more insidious than a man who had accidentally entered the women's changing area and then apologised, before retreating.

I didn’t say that, did I? I don’t think anyone should be left with no space to use including women and girls. If trans people can’t use the service because virgin don’t have appropriate spaces that is a problem

That's is just focusing on the person with the trans identity/cross sex identity, though. Public spaces are not predicated on individual feelings, but on generally recognised categories, boundaries and rules.

Errr whot?

To use the pool /sauna the user will need to change out of outdoor clothing and store said clothing in an approved space?

Or is some dirty sod looking for a special setup where she/he is allowed to use outdoor clothing in these areas?

So they are saying it's about access to the poolside stuff, not using a specific changing room because of sex. Does that mean they have given up on the changing room usage and are going for this issue instead?

But how do they imagine trans people change for these facilities? Do they think they arrive already in their costume? Where do they leave their possessions while swimming? And how do they shower / dry themselves afterwards if they aren't using the changing room?

'Third spaces' have always been the obvious practical solution, but most trans activists and allies decry them saying that they are 'othering'.

Well then I guess it's up to them to lobby Virgin Active and others for a third space and for Virgin Active to decide whether they wish to accommodate that.

I'm all for third spaces where practical, but let's not forget that we all of us feel 'uncomfortable' at various points and in various contexts in life, and there's no right to sail through life never having to confront any discomfort. If you choose to transition your gender, then there are going to be some consequences of that that are different to if you don't. That's part of what needs to be taken into consideration when making that decision, surely?

They are othering but necessary if trans people aren’t allowed to use spaces of their acquired gender/sex

Btw my ( David Lloyd) gym has a solution that would work. You access poolside stuff via the two changing rooms, but there is also a disabled lift and disabled changing room which is at the other end of the pool - you get into it via the gym. I can just imagine what trans members would say if they were offered that!