How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

Quite. And I note neither of my questions were answered.

The male sex class is 50% of the population. They are the predator and oppressor sex class. And the ruling sex class. They are not a 'minority'.

You still don't get it. This is not about 'trans people'. This is about MALE vs FEMALE. And the rights of the female sex to have a female only change room.

It's not about anything else. No woman or girl should have to see these in our change rooms (click on them to remove the 'sensitive' label).

No one is throwing 'hate' at you. Womens rights to safety, privacy and dignity away from the MALE GAZE is not 'hate'. Please stop maliciously misrepresenting and gaslighting.

Being trans is a tiny part of who my child is

I don't think that's true, and I don't think you believe it's true either. Like it is for the trans children (now adults) in my family, I think it's a cloak, a shield, a sword and an identity, that's used to mask some other very significant issues that can't now and won't be addressed.

You're very obviously much more invested in this topic than you would be for something like hair colour or having long eyebrows.

Anyway, you and your children, difficult though it may be, are simply going to have to get to grips with the concept of other people’s rights and boring, unsparkly little lives mattering too. Your child should be aware when dating that she needs to be clear with both men and women that she isn’t actually male before the relationship becomes sexual in any way. Because it’s the legally and morally right thing to do.

I quoted the wrong person. I meant to quote @CautiousLurker2 I think.

If being trans is only a tiny part of who any trans person is, why is it so important to them to transition?

So hold on, if women are “weaponising their trauma” in an effort to keep single sex spaces, “ then surely trans people abd their allies are weaponising their trauma to access those spaces. So why are you condemning women for using the same tactics? It’s not women’s fault you lied to your child is it? I mean, he’s going to find out at some point he can’t actually change sex and that gender is a load of made up bollocks. You did this to him. It’s all on you.

It is that simple for everyone, even “trans kids” and their parents.

100%. Everyone has to obey the law.

I know I’m not nearly as well informed on this as the rest of you, and I know my position is simplistic, but it is that simple for me.

I don’t see any point in complicating it with legalese or wordy descriptions. Everyone has a right to be protected from harassment and abuse and violence by the law

And for the avoidance of any possible doubt, that includes and applies to people who identify as trans, also.

Which is a position entirely compatible with having the factual knowledge that trans-identifying men are still men and the opinion that they should stay the heck out of women's toilets.

Absolutely, I was including them but agree it’s good to make it crystal clear.

Absolutely everyone needs to obey the law. Regardless of their sex or gender.

I was sure you did. We all do, at least everyone whose posts I remember reading on here. And that's a lot of GC people.

I'm frankly horrified by every story I read about a child being bullied or mistreated. The solution to those problems doesn't lie in affirming them as a member of the opposite sex, however. I'm addressing these remarks not so much at you but at the early morning drive-by scolder, if she ever returns.

I'm still curious about what she is or was hoping to get out of contributing to this thread.

My point was, having been traumatised (as the person I replied to was, and as I have) is zero excuse for being rude, aggressive or prejudiced. I wasn't referring to women in general.

The idea that toilets and changing rooms are 'safe spaces' is laughable. As is the idea that men need to transition, or even dress up, to access women.

Going after trans people is popular among the far right precisely because it ignores how violent cis men will attack is anywhere, wherever they want, and almost always without consequence.

Pretending that sex offenders don't just walk into 'safe spaces' whenever the hell they want is doing a massive disservice to victims.

Oh and being horrible about trans people solves nothing. Please educate yourself on difference, it's completely normal. Trans people have existed forever, and always will.

I have never been rude, aggressive or prejudiced.

I’ve simply asked that trans identifying individuals obey the law.

Please educate yourself on difference, it's completely normal.

it’s because we understand the difference between men and women that we hold the views we do.

Trans people have existed forever, and always will.

Can you explain what this is meant to mean, and what you think the significance of it is? It comes over very passive aggressive.

She didn’t call them “safe spaces” so why are you putting it in quotes? She rightly called them “single sex spaces”, because that is what they are. Men aren’t welcome in the women’s, and I imagine vice versa but it’s up to the men.

There is no such thing as a “cis man”. It’s a meaningless distinction. There are men who identify as women or “non binary” and they are simply men like all the others.

So what is the excuse for trans people and their allies issuing rape threats, threats of violence and threats of murder to women who say men need to stay out of female spaces? If no spaces are safe, then men claiming a trans identity might as well use the men’s then. If “cis” men are going to invade female spaces anyway, the non cis men would be in just as much danger there wouldn’t they, so there’s no reason for them to use female facilities is there?

I'm.sure a lot of violent men would welcome trans women being forced into the Gents, ditto trans men who look gnc.

It'll solve nothing. There is no epidemic of violence against cis women in toilets and changing rooms. All that's changed is that gnc cis women are more likely to be beaten up in them. Progress huh.

It'll solve nothing. There is no epidemic of violence against cis women in toilets and changing rooms. All that's changed is that gnc cis women are more likely to be beaten up in them. Progress huh.

Are you contradicting yourself within two sentences here?

being rude, aggressive or prejudiced.

The only one who was rude, aggressive and prejudiced is you. You can on here dismissing womens rights, laughing at us, calling me 'darling', telling us to cope, stay mad, etc. You were the one who was aggressive.

The idea that toilets and changing rooms are 'safe spaces' is laughable. As is the idea that men need to transition, or even dress up, to access women.

They are certainly safer than mixed sex spaces. The fact is that allowing men to enter those spaces on their say so allows ALL males to enter those spaces.

Going after trans people is popular among the far right precisely because it ignores how violent cis men will attack is anywhere, wherever they want, and almost always without consequence.

We are LEFT WING FEMINISTS. Not 'right wing'. Calling feminists 'right wing' is a popular tactic of the Mens Rights Activist. Allowing a subset of FULLY INTACT MALES in female spaces opens it up to ALL MEN, including 'c1s' men. You have opened the door to ALL. That is what you can't see. A male is a male is a male. A male in a dress is no 'less dangerous' than a male in a suit and tie. Indeed and in fact, transwomen are far more dangerous statistically than so-called 'c1s' men.

And we strengthen safeguards. We don't throw up our hands, give up, and let ALL males in. We lock our doors at night, even though a determined burglar 'will still break in anyway'.

Womens based are sacred to us and we don't throw up our hands, we strengthen safeguards and give women permission to call males in those spaces out.

Why do you not expect trans identifying individuals to obey the law?

Sure. I mean trans people exist.

They have always existed.

They always will.

Why on earth is that aggressive? They will simply keep existing, because they are individuals, not some hive mind conspiracy. They eat lunch, do crosswords, take trains, read bedtime stories to their children. Because they are normal human beings.

Being trans isn't cosplay. It's just who someone is, as unalterable as nose shape. They didn't choose not be trans, they simply are, and living as themselves (whether they express that through gendered clothing etc or not) is just them being honest.