How is the trans issue ever going to be resolved?

[PassportPanicFuuuck]

It seems as insoluble as the Israel/Palestine question when the two "sides" want directly opposing things. I've heard the arguments that trans people "just want to pee" and that "no-one would go through medical/surgical gender reassignment purely to abuse women", plus the mantras that "trans people exist", "trans rights are human rights" and "trans women are women" and it's quite clear that the people who believe these things fervently aren't going to change their minds any time soon.

But to a certain extent, life isn't fair. Not everyone does have equal opportunities. If you're in a gay relationship (and there's nothing wrong with that) you can't have a biological child with your partner; if you're infertile (as I am) you can't have a child at all; if you're trans (and there's nothing wrong with that either) you can't enter the spaces of the opposite sex; if you're British you don't have an automatic right to go and live in the US; if you're short and unsporty you don't have a right to be on the Olympic basketball team - and so on. All sorts of opportunities are denied people at various different points, some as a result of decisions you make (like not studying for a medical degree means I can never be a doctor) and some not (see above re. infertility), and beyond universal human rights you don't have a right - one might say "entitlement" - to an awful lot of things, much as you might keenly want them.

Like it or not, once we end up in these categories we have to accept it. Absolutely no-one is eligible to do everything or to go everywhere. However if you have made a choice - even if you consider it to be more a recognition of something innate rather than a conscious decision - it doesn't mean that you have made this choice on behalf of everyone else. If you have chosen to transition (again, you may not consider it to be a "choice") you can't dictate that everyone else ignore biology and logic and linguistic authenticity and you can't dictate that everyone else will want to celebrate your decision. No, we don't have to accept the "lady bulge", we don't have to accept child abuse under the guise of gender-affirming care and we don't have to accept men in female sports / changing rooms / organisations.

Not sure how coherently worded all the above is, but perhaps it will provoke some interesting debate.

I was describing your behaviour, not you as a person. But if the shoe fits.

As for nastiest person, look in the mirror. But that is what narcissism is. It gaslights and DARVOs and accuses innocent people of what the accuser themselves are guilty of. You have upset two rape survivors, and you don't give a shit do you. There is no remorse there, no compassion.

I said that I did not believe in self-IDing into women's spaces, trans women in women's sports, or trans women in refuges. I don't think that counts as saying that women are support props for men and that they should give up their rights to appease men.

I also postulated at one point that I supposed the crux of the matter was that I was seeing those transitioned women that I posted as women because, to me, they looked and sounded just like them, whereas others here were seeing them as men. Paraphrasing, I said that that must be the disconnect.

Made no difference whatsoever to the streams of relentless abuse.

Yes, you both did, I just can't keep up, and of course the abusive posters are the ones that stand out.

Yep.

There was nothing 'moderate' about your views. Not at all. If you think your views are moderate and not extremist, well, I don't know what to say.

Calling women far right brown shirts because they stand up for their single sex rights.

And this is the moderate position?

I am so sorry.

Apparently yes 😵‍💫

Ironically, It seems clear to me that gender ideology is the more right wing proposition.

some of the posters here talked to me the way the Gestapo talked to the Jews

Just catching up with the thread and saw this as well.
I mean... I have no words

Thank you @Taztoy

It stuns me that people have to justify and expose their vulnerabilities in order to defend the simple right to a private single sexed space… and yet it still holds no sway. The internalised misogyny of many men and women astounds me.

I said that I did not believe in self-IDing into women's spaces, trans women in women's sports, blah blah blah...

And?

You don't get to tell us what's moderate and what's not moderate. You don't get to tell us what we should 'compromise' roll over and suck up. You don't get to lecture us about 'common sense' when you've not bothered to investigate why no one else has never suggested that before...

And THEN have the nerve to continue to arrogantly tell us you know better and we are all the baddies.

You made the decision we were all baddies when you came to the thread. Well we aren't.

We just can see bullshit from outer space.

Well it kind of does. You’re saying you know “transwomen” aren’t really women but women should allow them into single sex spaces anyway because they want to. Can you not see how that shows you think women should just appease these men, whatever the cost to women like Taztoy? That’s how you are coming across. That it doesn’t matter to you how many women are traumatised as long as men get what they want.

Tone-policing is a silencing tactic that women should learn to recognise.

Well of course it is. Because it prioritises individual desires over what is best for the community at large.

There has always been trans people and we have accepted them in society, usually on the fringes (as entertainers) or simply they kept themselves to themselves. Nobody minded this to be honest and if we return to this non militant culture then I think both sides can call a truce, no discrimination in employment where not pertinent to the job, respect single sex spaces and make third spaces available wherever feasible.

We have a lovely tran m-f person locally who simply uses the disabled loo in the pub, everyone treats them with complete respect and no pushing of boundaries the other way either. The fact they wear clothes that look frankly ridiculous on a 6ft 60 something bloke is their choice (and to be fair would look silly on a woman too). Often they wear jeans and a ladies blouse around town, a bit less look at me - again who cares, their choice and I happily help find them stuff in the shop I work in (it’s a fun challenge!)

THIS!!

Please don’t erase disabled spaces. Please make it a fourth space.

That it doesn’t matter to you how many women are traumatised as long as men get what they want.

This is the bottom line

unless a trans individual is also disabled, they should not use the disabled toilet.

Yep.

Women are service humans. They must always defer to males. They must always know they are below the males in importance. They are disposable and not worthy of protection or dignity.

Indeed. I’d recommend the poster have a read any of the raft of Italian Jewish autobiographies written by the very few survivors of World War 2 (Primo Levi’s The Reawakening; The Garden of the Finzi-Continis by Giorgiano Bassani; or All Our Yesterdays by Natalia Ginzburg) to really gain insight into how the Gestapo spoke to Jews.

Of course, there were very few actual survivors to give true accounts, given that so many of them were murdered in, like, an actual genocide.

I think this is often how it goes, yes.

As you know, I don't agree with any kind of man in refuges or women's sports or in self-IDing into women's spaces. On the other hand, I didn't think it's right to assume that all trans women, like the genuine ones who have committed to transition and look just like women - the ones I posted - should be banned from using the loos and changing rooms of the sex they've socially transitioned to. I think I've revised that now, thanks to Old Crone, but I've been up all night talking to you, it's 6.30 am, and I'm so tired I can't remember exactly what she said now. I'll look in a day or so.

But even before, I think those views were moderate and trying not to exclude either side.

I did not mean to upset any rape survivors and would not have imagined that such moderate views would do so.

I have already expressed my outrage multiple times at what happened to you, but it makes no difference to you. The character assassinations and insults keep coming. I know you don't believe me and I'm sure I'm in for another round of verbal abuse, but I DO care, very much. I care desperately for any woman who has been traumatised at the hands of men. I don't want to talk about it, but I've had my own experiences, close to home.

@Taztoy I agree that fourth spaces would be ideal.