A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

I think howse did a list recently that was helpful in that everyone ended up gender fluid/non binary according to the traits.

i think it included being attractive to the opposite sex and being sensitive.

Ooh, a list would be really helpful.

Which is exactly what happened to Dolatowski's victims. My county is such a small area and yet I know of three males who have tried to use trans ID in order to access female spaces. Two succeeded. The third died in the male prison estate.

It is very clear that predatory men are using trans ID in order to access women and girls. The three that I'm very aware of are from Glenrothes, Kinglassie and Kirkcaldy - all 10 miles or less from my home. They are high-profile cases of particularly violent men.

I'm not a statistician, but that seems like a significant amount for such a small percentage of the population. (Apparently, the last census showed that less than 0.5 percent of the population in Scotland is trans. I don't have the breakdown of how many of those would be trans identified men.)

Women represent only 4% of the prison population in Scotland - there were 318 in prison in the most recent figures that I could find. There are other trans identified men in Scottish prisons. The figures suggest that the offending rate for crimes worthy of incarceration is higher for trans identified men than it is for women, given that women make up around 50% of the population. (Dolatowski - Kirkcaldy - was only remanded for his original crimes but has since been in and out of the prison estate.)

I see that a previous poster has already given the full stats for the UK prison population.

It may well be that the Scottish prisoners do not sincerely believe that they are women but that's irrelevant. As soon as we allow trans identified men into women's spaces, this is what we risk.

https://www.scotpho.org.uk/population-groups/prisoners/data/prison-population/

Gormless miasma 🤣

It’s bizarre that a take away from these posts is that people find it hard to separate sex and gender when the crux of most posts is based on the need to recognise them as different constructs with different aetiology. This is actually a point of agreement.

In terms of gender being determined however is liked, we could someone who identifies as a transwomen because they only feel like their authentic self feeling humiliated by people belittling them for adopting sexist tropes that are associated with women. We can also have transwomen who believe they are women, and transwomen who consider themselves such for any given reason.

This is not a robust enough construct upon which to organise anything!

Several of us have asked for details on just how this new style of ‘safeguarding’ that keeps being mentioned directly or via policy creation works in publicly accessed and uncontrolled single sex provisions, and there is nothing forthcoming.

I take this lack of being able to explain what this means in real life application as this repeated position being a platitude. A statement that is not able of being able to be applied.

There are several inconsistent platitudes such as this that are repeated as being truth that people who believe they are the moderate voices and those pointing out the issues are the extremists. We see them every so often.

If a person declaring that there is this new basis of safeguarding cannot explain how this works practically, I suspect it is a lovely comforting theory that some people hide behind.

Even if I didn't feel unsafe or uncomfortable with men present in a women's space, they still shouldn't be there. I should not have to give a reason why someone who doesn't belong in my space should not be there. They're men; enough said.

No, if you bothered reading what I wrote instead of being rude, you would see that I've made it clear that I don't want men in women's loos

Gormless is so much better. I'm going to use it

I think observed at birth is the correct term, my dearest, darling, sweetie pie.

OK, so you can’t tell that a woman who is not petite and curvy is a woman but plenty of us can. In any case, if we were confident that there were no men in women’s spaces we wouldn’t need to. It’s only because men are routinely and aggressively in women’s spaces that there is hyper vigilance.

There’s certainly a lot of gormless miasma in the world 🤣

Someone born a male who thinks they are female needs counselling not access to female toilets and changing rooms

I wanted to know if there was a single possible way of communicating this to TIMs they would find acceptable.
They have no answer, because there is none. They are just pure selfishness.

I have worked with < lovely > in character trans-women , however they all were 6 foot, broad shoulders, gorgeous man's face guys who treated me like a lady....gay and trans like me for some reason. All that is so so useless

We’re less than 1% of the population but encountering trans women, who are half of an already small number of people, is a routine issue? Please 🙄

I worked with a lovely young man in retail who suddenly became a lady. All right. But the female and male toilets were far away in another story and we have never actually deciphered into which ones lol, he goes in, because anytime I needed a toilet, I was always alone on that storey

Youd see Blair White in the street and think: Man

Aye dead on sure you would

So we’re all in agreement. No males in female spaces even if they claim to be women. Awesome.

Have you see him in real life? Without the filters? Trust me,you’d know

I worked with a trans woman in the 90s on a hospital ward . I could tell straight away that she was a man but no one else did . It came out about 2 years later when she told the ward manager . She was always acting weird in the patients bathroom, watching herself in the mirror while caressing her breasts . Weird . It was obvious that she was very happy to have her own boobs to cuddle 😂

There’s a man in my village who wears a dress and tights, but no make up. Long hair.
But I can’t tell if he’s a trans woman or a cis gender man in a dress because I haven’t asked him about his gender. For sure he’s a man though.
I don’t really care in the shops, but I was idly wondering which he was.

Well exactly, its one of those logic fallacy things.

’Observed’ is more accurate than assigned, but both can distract from the fact that natal sex does not require observing or assigning.

In 2010, the Tavi referred to natal sex. Around 2012 they started using ‘assigned sex’ in response to requests from ‘service users’ who said the terminology was less distressing. This aligned with a move from trying to help alleviate distress by helping patients ‘reconcile different parts of themselves’ to facilitating treatment that involved making physical changes to parts of themselves.

I don’t think one led to the other, but both reflect how the clinic took the idea of being ‘patient led’ way beyond other areas of medicine.

It is my experience of being professionally involved in how this all played out that I use the term natal sex.

For the avoidance of doubt on the question I asked @Mamma246 was:
"what benefit (if any) is there to women to allow trans identified males into female single sex spaces? hint, there isn't any"

I'm going to answer to my own question.

During the "Be kind!", "No debate!", "Trans Women are Women!" era many women were directly harmed by allowing trans identified males into female single sex spaces, and any woman who spoke up were punished in various ways for saying no.

Women and girls have been physically and sexually assaulted. This website has a lot of other articles about the damages done by trans identified men, currently the top article is about the male Olympic boxer from Taiwan Lin Yu-Ting who, along with Imane Khelif, were cheered on as they punched women in the face repeatedly in front of the world.

reduxx.info/

At least one woman was denied surgery for requesting female single sex intimate care. A trans identified male nurse not involved in her care entered her pre-op examination room. "She thinks she was "targeted" because of her gender-critical views"

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1799446/theresa-steele-denied-surgery-nhs-london-hca

A hospital denied that a rape could have even occurred because they said "There was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened". There was a trans identified male on the ward, and he did in fact rape another patient.

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/hospital-says-patient-could-not-26506744

Women have been threatened with all kinds of violence for saying trans identified men are men

terfisaslur.com/

Women have been unfairly dismissed from jobs, or unlawfully discriminated against and were forced to crowdfund for justice to uphold their lawful rights

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57426579

unherd.com/newsroom/jo-phoenix-wins-tribunal-case-over-gender-critical-views/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cge51zwz384o

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sandie-peggie-everything-you-need-36072189

There has been significant overreach by the police

www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/superintendent-police-force-hate-crime-incident-0600v008c?msockid=0f38b1e1e0d36fb22d23a477e1336ec5

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11282263/Moment-police-swoop-house-devout-catholic-mother-malicious-online-posts.html

I know he's not a man, but Graham Linehan has been on the receiving end of this too

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07p7v2nn8mo

And there are many, many more examples but I broke my MN feed by linking all of these articles, and had to delete the whole post and start again so I will stop now and cross my fingers that this post will work.

Maybe this will help cut through the emotional language and emotional pleas. The peanut free analogy.

If a space is labelled female only, there should not be any male people in that space. Otherwise it is not by any twist in logic female only.

x.com/legalfeminist/status/1854219163146899688?s=46