A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

What, my open plan office with cameras monitored by a security guard who sits downstairs? That one? Are you a plant from 'let them speak'?

Why should the onus be on women to be responsible for ejecting males from female single-sex spaces?

The argument about whether women can accurately identify the sex of others is only a part of the full story. Men who choose to identify as women know they are male, and yet they choose to break the (UK) law and use female single-sex provisions.

Men are not exempt from the law just because they choose a particular identity, so they ought to follow it. The fact that so many think the law doesn’t apply to them highlights exactly what the problem is, which is men seeing women as validation props rather than humans beings. It is ridiculous that men feel they can demand that women visibly demonstrate their distress and suffering before men choose whether or not to obey the law.

So it’s somewhat irrelevant whether I can accurately sex the men in women’s toilets. The men going in there know with 100% accuracy know they shouldn’t, because they know they are male.

"They [trans identified males] do not want to access provision that is mixed sex, even if it’s safe"

I think this deserves highlighting as very telling.

TRAs have been telling us for years how vulnerable trans identified men are, how they are constantly attacked and assaulted (yet no actual evidence of this has emerged), but when given the option to escape all that abuse they say they are up against they said no thanks, we don't want to be safe, we want in with the women... oh, and all you feminists can die in a grease fire! Why won't you let us in the women's single sex spaces, we just want to pee!.. TERFs deserve rape! We're so vulnerable... Decapitate TERFS!

More and more people are waking up to what's been going on under the cover of "Be Kind".

But surely the risk of being alone with a man that hasn’t walked into your office with your permission is the same?

This is disingenuously implying posters do not want to allow men in public spaces, without permission.

When what we are posting about is single sex spaces. Toilets, where women might be partially clothed, or pushed into a cubicle which is then locked, or have a phone slid under the door, whatever.

There is concern for women's dignity, too. No woman really feels comfortable with a man joining in on their ablutions in a female toilet. Examine your inner feels: if your brother claimed he was a woman would you be just fine in a changing room with him? Mine does. I'm not.

I’m trying to limit the number of labels used in order to focus on the points at hand.

When it comes to talking about female only provision, I think we only need 3 labels - male, female and transwomen. Transwomen are male, but within the context of this discussion, need to be identified as a subset of males (because they want to be included in the female category).

I choose not to use the labels men and women as they are not required and the less terms available to be mangled the better!

Because we were talking about trans women in women’s toilets…

Well, he’s your brother.

The stat doesn’t even support that poster’s position. Only 29% of people thought intact male “trans women” should be allowed to access women’s toilets so the poster does not share the majority view. I guess in their haste to google or consult AI for “evidence” they didn’t notice.

I happily change with my sister. What is the difference, I wonder?

I see my question about what is the actual benefit to women to allow males into female single sex spaces etc is still being studiously ignored.

Oh unless you count (I paraphrase, of course) because if we remove lawful protections and rights to single sex spaces for the female sex, the world will suddenly become a tolerant utopia... if you ignore all the harm done to women and girls of course. Oh btw 2+2=5 you know!

Come on, Momma246.

What is the difference?

What is the point of this comment?

I'd like @Mamma246 to explain what
they meant when they said this

inclusion in single-sex spaces can be managed safely through risk- and context-based policies.

What are these risk and context based policies specifically?

What @Mamma246 wants is mixed sex toilets for people with criminal convictions and mixed sex toilets for people without criminal convictions. That’s the two categories.
Wholly unworkable.

I asked what the difference was above (12:49), and I will answer for Momma246.

My brother, who claims to be a woman, is a man and he should not be in a woman's changing room or toilet for obvious reasons. He has had all the surgeries, unlike many other men who claim womanhood and still he does not belong there because he is male.

I feel uncomfortable at the thought of changing beside him because he is male.

Well you can't. But there is less need to. A man going into a women's toilet is by definition intruding in a place where he should not be, an intruder. An office is not a women-only space.

No, marigoldsareblooming, I mean that I am finding the incoherency of some posters insisting that some male people should access female single sex spaces wild to read. And the accusations about tone are hypocritical but enlightening.

It seems anything goes when it comes to making a group of male people feel good.

No you haven't. You've seen a ridiculous and sexist idea that men can think and feel like women which means they should access all women only areas.

You yourself can't even explain what gender is.

So educate us then. How would someone determine their gender?

However they like

You have absolutely no criteria, at all, apart from the fact that it's personal, and it can change, and everyone's different.

And you appear to believe that you can risk assess based on this!

I bet you, I could have a pretty good stab at the risk assessment of a person who believes this tho.

Instant red flag.

Any man can access spaces where women are vulnerable, based on how they feel, which can change at any point, and is different for everyone.

And just to make sure, we're going to indoctrinate children with this.

Mamma246 · Today 12:30

But surely the risk of being alone with a man that hasn’t walked into your office with your permission is the same?

What, in the same way that a stranger who walks into my shop with a big bag in the day time (without asking my permission) is just as likely to be a thief as the man I discover in my house with a big bag in the middle of the night?

And just to make sure, we're going to indoctrinate children with this.

Don't forget to sneer at anyone raising questions or disagreeing! The goal is women's silent acquiescence at all times.

Honestly. I've yet to see a single coherent definition of what gender is, and how you determine it.

you'd think, by now, they'd come up with something

Yeah, I agree. It was a high proportion of Bangladeshi women who were filling in forms saying they were trans. Because they couldn't comprehend the question due to language barriers.

Shifting constellations of gormless miasma not enough for you, Datun?

Some people are just pernickety.

Quite
DD stopped getting changed in front of DS or DH when she was around 7 or 8
They aren't going to SA her but even so she prefered not to be naked in front of men/boys

*Formless.

Autocock strikes again.