A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

Mamma246 · Today 11:51

Absolutely not. I find it incredibly frustrating to believe that all women aren’t feminists, and would rather see gender thrown back to the dark ages of “man v woman”.
Progress.

Progress is recognising that biological sex is a fact, whereas gender identity and gender roles are based on nothing but stereotypes. Feminists generally aren't in favour of people being categorised according to gender stereotypes.

Apart from the cultural appropriation of other cultures it reads as a list from Tumblr circa 2015

Well how do you do it when he walks into your office?

I usually notice from having my attention caught, it’s usually a male energy and then a person dressed in a performative way

I agree with this. I also think that through the entirety of human evolution being able to correctly identify someone’s sex is something we’ve evolved to do very well. Sorting people into male and female is a natural instinct from toddler age onwards.

Also, I do wonder if women have evolved to be better at doing this than men? For our safety we are very good at scanning situations for potential threats. For example on a train carriage late at night if there’s only me and one other person in it I’ll almost subconsciously check to see if they’re male or female.

And as this is something men won’t have grown up doing, maybe men (including trans identifying ones) aren’t as alert to this as women are.

Do we need to provide seperate toilets for every single gender?

Or do we continue to provide toilets based on sex (much easier with there only being two sexes).

So toilets will be single sex but mixed gender

Not something I've ever been accused of, but I'll claim it! 😁

It’s impossible to know why women aren’t challenging men in their spaces?

Interesting how the men who want to invade spaces where they aren’t allowed & aren’t welcome, always insist they don’t get bad vibes & are very comfortable in the ladies.

“no one ever has a problem with me”.

dudes- you are seeing only what you want to see.

Presumably the office isn’t female only, so he isn’t doing anything wrong, unlike he would be if he barged into the ladies’ toilets or changing rooms, which is a clear violation of women’s privacy and dignity and hostile behaviour to women in and of itself as it indicates that this man has no respect for their consent or boundaries.

Offices are not single sex environments.

You know this. 🙄

Now answer the question.

Not just toilets, risk assessments apparently. And not just for each gender, but for each individual person within that category.

We're gonna need considerably bigger pieces of paper

I had no idea feminism was really about celebrating this identity pick 'n' mix, now I feel truly empowered knowing that falafelines have equal opportunities to neurosis.

Neutrois! Tut tut you’re on the list for “education”.

And it would be hoped women don't pull their knickers down in the office

Exactly

You seem awfully confused here.

Whaaat??!!!

Here’s a definition of water: it’s a thick mixture of soil and liquid created by rainfall on earth.

No, that’s mud, isn’t it. Totally incorrect definition. As you know yours is.

Why do you even bother, ‘Mamma’?

Just to add that the photo above is an error - that's not Dolatowski. When the news of Dolatowski's crimes broke (one count of voyeurism against a minor; on of sexual assault - both in supermarket toilets) the news outlets originally only had the most heavily filtered FB profile picture I've ever seen.

He was, however, photographed at later court appearances. Our local newspaper gave the fullest original report.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/courts/819644/mum-of-supermarket-toilet-sex-assault-victim-warns-freed-attacker-could-strike-again/

Mamma246: feminism is about ensuring that people of all genders have equal rights, opportunities, and respect.

NO! That is not feminism.

Feminism is the belief that women should have the same rights, power, and opportunities as men. Feminism also recognises the needs that women have because of their female bodies, needs that differ from men's needs.

Feminism is for women. Not men or men who claim womanhood. Women don't fight for men's rights, men have all the rights already.

ed for stray asterisks

I went to a womens festival where there were two men/transwomen. There was absolutely no mistaking them.

What else can these people do @LeftieRightsHoarder- everything about what they believe and advocate for is absurd.

Personally, I have no problem with a trans person who passes or even vaguely passes as a woman using the female bathroom.
What I have a problem with is the men who use it as an excuse to terrorise women in any way, by pretending to be trans or using their trans as a way to infiltrate women's spaces. So those people who are dressed over the top, obviously men taking advantage and basically doing what predatory men too. Unfortunately, the small trans community has been infiltrated by predatory men who will do anything to gain power and abuse women.
It's a shame for the trans who want to live quietly and fit in. But women need to be protected against these men.

Christ almighty.

Ah the ol' n+1 "argument"

I guess the concept of gender is too hard for some to separate from biological sex. I’ve seen this taught and understood in year 2 classrooms. Oh dear.

[Trans identified men's] "inclusion in single-sex spaces can be managed safely through risk- and context-based policies."

Yes they can!

Risk assessment policy for trans identified male inclusion to female spaces:
Q: Are trans identified males men?
A: Yes
Q: Are males as a sex category a risk to females as a sex category?
A: Yes

Conclusion of risk assessment policy for trans identified male inclusion to female spaces:
All males should be excluded from all female single sex spaces.

Context-based assessment policy for trans identified male inclusion to female spaces:
Q: Is there any context in which a person of the male sex should be granted a special dispensation regardless of their biologically male sexed body, which entitles them to be included in female single sex spaces (such as when a particular man or set of men are at risk of male on male violence)?
A: No.
Q: Is there any benefit to the female sex to include those of the male sex in female single sex spaces etc?
A: No.
Q: Is it detrimental to the female sex to include those of the male sex in female single sex spaces etc?
A: Yes. In multiple ways.

Conclusion of context-based assessment policy for trans identified male inclusion to female spaces:
All males should be excluded from all female single sex spaces.

Ah well, there we go then. That wasn't as hard or complicated as Mamma246 seemed to be suggesting it was 😂