A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

Feminists do not put men's feelings about women's safety and dignity.

I've just seen the reference to 'trans existence'. No one is stopping trans people from existing. As far as trans identified males are concerned, they seem to be not only existing, but extremely aggressively and publicly trying to impinge on female rights.
If they aren't happy with the existence they currently have though, the solution is not to take female spaces/prizes etc. Because they're male.

I have no way of knowing if I’ve ever been tricked by a man pretending to be a woman, if he disguised himself brilliantly.

What I know is that the trans movement has made a lot of women uncomfortable and uneasy in places where we previously knew we were safe. And I feel for tall masculine-looking women who know their appearance may now alarm some women who previously wouldn’t have suspected they might be male intruders.

Well done lads. You’ve destroyed some female peace of mind. That must feel like a victory.

Transwoman are not legally recognised as women unless thay have a gender recognition certificate and then only in certain limited circumstances and they remain their natal sex for the purposes of the Equality Act.
And as a reminder a man who has a penis and takes no cross sex hormones can get a Gender recognition certificate saying he is a woman and this allows him to change his birth certificate to say female.

Gender is not biology. Sex is biology.
I don’t believe that you are a feminist because you are trying but failing to convince the women on this thread that men deserve a place in our female only spaces and services.

The point of my question to you @Mamma246 was to understand your personal line. My reading of your answer was that you were patronising in tone, ignoring or misreading my actual question.

But in the interests of trying to understand each other, I'll try again.

You highlighted two competing 'risks' or potential risks earlier -the fear a woman may have about a man (regardless of gender identity) entering a womens only space v the potential harm/damage done to a TIM if we act on the woman's fear by designating a space as female only.
My understanding of your posts is that you believe/feel that the women's toilets should not be designated a sexed only space but a gendered space - is that correct?

We may well discuss agreement/disagreement on validity of that opinion but if that is your opinion, I'm interested to know your opinion on other (usually) sexed spaces - hence my 'exhaustive' list and thank you for your acknowledgement of my categorisation skills.

I don’t have to convince you of anything. You are a stranger.

Here’s a definition of feminism, because you seem confused.

feminism is about ensuring that people of all genders have equal rights, opportunities, and respect.

No it isn't. It's about liberating women from male oppression.

You're trying to make feminism about the men!

Can you list all these genders please

You’re welcome 😇

Thank you for the careful summary. To clarify, my position is that access should be guided by risk assessment, context, and behaviour, rather than assumptions based solely on sex assigned at birth. Framing the discussion in terms of gendered versus sexed spaces oversimplifies the nuanced balancing act that safeguarding actually entails. In practice, this means that spaces can remain protective of women’s privacy and safety while also acknowledging the rights and dignity of trans women.

Come on then. A man wants to come into my toilet, how is he risk assessed, and by whom?

Hardly anyone uses that language outside of genderists and genderist influenced policy making. And I am not going to use it. It’s relevant to a tiny number of DSD cases. Sex is “assigned” at conception by your genetic makeup, not at birth by a doctor.

Here's a proper one: "Advocacy of equality of the sexes and the establishment of the political, social, and economic rights of the female sex; the movement associated with this." (Emphasis added)

Makes a lot more sense of the etymology, doesn't it?

Yes.

I mean, you could just google it…

There isn’t a single, universally agreed-upon list of genders, because gender is socially and culturally constructed, fluid, and deeply personal. However, here’s a broad, commonly referenced set of gender identities:
Binary genders:

• Male
• Female

Non-binary / gender-diverse:

• Agender (no gender)
• Bigender (identifies with two genders)
• Genderfluid (gender shifts over time)
• Genderqueer (outside traditional gender categories)
• Demiboy / Demigirl (partially identifying as male or female)
• Two-Spirit (Indigenous North American term for diverse gender roles)
• Neutrois (neutral or null gender)
• Androgyne (blend of masculine and feminine)

Other culturally specific genders:

• Hijra (South Asia)
• Fa’afafine (Samoa)
• Kathoey (Thailand)
• Bakla (Philippines)

Expanded / personal descriptors:

• Transgender (umbrella term for people whose gender differs from assigned sex at birth)
• Cisgender (gender aligns with assigned sex at birth)
• Pangender (identifying with many or all genders)
• Maverique (independent, non-binary gender)
• Third gender (varies culturally, outside male/female)

How are any of us able to judge a man's prior 'behaviour' when he walks into our toilets?

Rewilding Jude is clearly a biological woman despite the hormones and surgery. It something you can't hide or change.

Hilarious.

Yes thank you! It’s all about getting equal rights for these things

I used to be of the 'live and let live' mind until a 10 yr old girl in the next town had to punch Katie Dolatowski in "her" nuts in order to escape a sexual assault in Morrison's toilets.

No, feminism is not predicated on “gender” being innate. Quite the reverse.

Gotta love the way so many of these sound like they were plucked from a gender studies lecturers arse.

How are these verified?

Right l, so

"...feminism is about ensuring that people who have a feeling that is socially and culturally constructed, fluid, and deeply personal have equal rights, opportunities, and respect"

has anyone told Germaine Greer?

Well quite. We were all 'kind' once.

For the female sex.