A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

So how do we define it then, in a way that is clear to others than the individual trans woman themselves?

But whatever else happens, the law has to choose.

(1) All people have legal protections based on their sex and sexual orientation, including people who claim to have an opposite-sex gender identity.

or

(2) People who claim to have an opposite-sex gender identity have cross sex privileges (which end sex based protections by definition), which are ultimately meaningless because no man can ever enter a womans space or have lesbian sex with a lesbian (by definition he has entered a formerly single sex space that he has destroyed as his first hairy big toe crosses the threshold, and lesbians don't date men)

What do i have in common with a transwoman that I don't also have in common with Andy who lives down the road? And why should I accept one over the other in single sex spaces for females?

Tandora
If a women requests that no men, whatever their gender identity, are allowed in a female single sex spaces, eg changing rooms, prison ,rape counselling groups etc, would you say that is a transphobic request?

Do you think that certain aspects of trans activism have been unhelpful, particularly Stonewall's No Debate policy?

Harriet Harman, speaking about the Equality Act, said the aim and intention behind the Act (in so far as it related to trans people) had been to find compromises between their needs and the needs of female people. This compromise was later rejected by trans people (as represented by Stonewall) in favour of self ID and a desire to abolish single sex spaces altogether. Do you think in retrospect it was a good idea to jettison these compromises and do you believe that they can be restored in the future?

Also, lots of men with AGP get off on hearing about the sexual trauma women have experienced, it’s their thing.

Trans incels are a sub set of incels.

I'm here to have a respectful exchange of ideas about sex, gender and diversity.

I do not wish to be subject to your personal attacks and demeaning comments. I don't think that it should be too much to ask for you to either be respectful or leave.

@Tandora Please can you reply to the question posed to you by @TheKeatingFive because I and I’m sure others would like to know too: what commonality do you maintain there is between you and her/me?

I think that until we have an internationally recognised evidence based definition there is no such thing as a transwoman. They are a man.

Even if such a category could be invented then it's possible that it could be called something entirely different without the woman part as not to confuse it with actual women and for it to always be a subset of men.

This. Men in general but AGP is a boundary violating paraphilia in and of itself.

One can but hope. Andora said it before. I can go find the quote but I’d prefer if someone else did as it’s seriously distressing for me to read it.

A trans woman is a person who has some observable physical male characteristics but who recognises self as female.

Do you think trans people should be allowed to self ID into whatever space they feel comfortable using?

The commonality you share is that you both understand yourself to be a woman/ female.

And I’m pretty sure you won’t get that answer today.

But that person is, and always will be, biologically male, because actually changing a human being’s sex is impossible.

How do you recognise yourself as female when you aren't female. What are your points of reference?

OP starts a thread just so they can polish their "halo" by posting endless word salad and scolding posters that their thread isn't for XYZ.

Me, I say

𝙽𝚘𝚙𝚎

ℕ𝕠𝕡𝕖

𝙉𝐨𝑝𝑒𝒕𝘺

N⃣o⃣p⃣e⃣

I’ve experienced this on an online abuse survivors forum that was based in the states.

I left.

just because an older trans woman had what came across as a creepy interest in getting people to talk about their trauma. I can’t explain it it felt off.

so I just left.

I am one, they are not. I don't understand it in the way a man who thinks he is female does. So no commonality. Not one jot.

@Tandora
This is absolutely not trying to derail your post but the following question is part of the core of what is, to me, highly problematic in a discussion that involves any and all attempts at re-identifying what we mean by sexed beings.
Identification in the narrow sense of “self-identification as a sex or gender” is based on a fundamental disregard for all nonverbal humans and all humans without sufficient intellectual abilities to comprehend what either sex or gender means, is this not so?
A corollary is “and therefore is any theory or proposition supporting the reality of the ability to change sex ableist and harmful to the afford mentioned persons?”

Who gets to judge what is “respectful”?

For example, I find men telling women what they can or can’t say to be disrespectful.

Why did trans activists resist respectful dialogue’ for so long? Why was their position always ‘no debate’ ? Why was dissent always characterised as bigotry? What’s changed?

To the list of absolute truths I will add: over time, in most cultures including our own, people with female bodies have been classed together and based on that classing they have been marginalised, disempowered, exploited and abused both structurally and individually. While many (not all) cultures no longer explictly allow this, nevertheless many cultural norms and behaviours still reflect it.