A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

That’s meaningless if you are including yourself in that commonality. If you’re not including yourself, you’re not answering the question. It's like saying if I "understand myself" to be an elephant, and an elephant knows it’s an elephant, then we are both elephants.

What exactly is it that makes you "understand yourself" to be a woman?

The starting point is that trans'women' are a type of man. That is the basic starting point and if you can't be clear on that then any further attempt at detail is going to be fruitless and pointless.

I’ve had this feeling too, if you describe your SA even in the most basic terms it starts to sounds like some gross fantasy. It’s doubly traumatising.

This is a thread for respectful exchange of ideas.

Please do not join if you have other intentions.

Some implies not all.

which if the observable physical male characteristics do they have and which do they not have ?

How do I know how they recognise themselves?

And what in any of that makes them legally a woman in terms of biological sex and means they are legally entitled to use women’s single sex spaces?

My idea of respectful and your idea of respectful are mutually exclusive. As I said earlier, you are not the moderator here, so please feel free to report my posts that apparently don’t meet your criteria and let the actual moderators decide.

People will join if they want to, and post what they like. Just like you do.

But my understanding is based on my biological state.

Their understanding is based on something else entirely.

That's not commonality.

I’m sorry you had the same experience.

There are many other accounts that men do this.

And even then (as Brighton showed last night) they tend to retain the worst of male stereotypes (violence, entitlement, aggression, lack of empathy, misogyny) whilst adopting hte most trivial of female ones (make up and long hair)

Why can't we just have a thread for people who want to be respectful to each other? Why is that too much to ask?

It's not about lying though - it's about different conditions / identities / festishes / fantasies all being put under the same 'trans' umbrella.

There is huge difference between someone like Debbie Hayton who has body dysmorphia so severe that they had to put themselves through surgery and societal judgement at a time when it was a lot more difficult and there was a lot less acceptance than there is now but still recognises that they are male and India Willoughby who has gone through surgery and thinks that somehow makes them female, routinely bullies women who object and uses their trans status as a way of seeking fame.

Then you have Eddie Izzard and Jamie Wallis who think they can take their 'womanhood' on and off like a costume when it suits them, and use the advantages that their male sex confers to get ahead.

There is even more difference between all of those and Isla Bryson who only came out as trans to try and get a reduced sentence and be placed in a women's prison.

For me personally, while I am happy to accept people like Debbie in my single sex spaces (not that I think they would abuse their position to access them inappropriately), I absolutely wouldn't be OK with the others.

Despite these huge differences we are told that all of these people are women now and that should be accepted by everyone without debate. The reason we have ended up hear is largely because those most vocal about it - at least in the earlier days of the TRA movement - weren't people like Debbie, they were men who wanted to access what they saw as some kind of female privilege - their innate male privilege made them think they were entitled to do so and meant they got angry because they weren't used to being told no - especially by women!

No.

I don’t subscribe to any stereotype so which box would you put me in? (Not RTFT yet)

Jealous that you can do all those fancy fonts!

If a male person "recognises" himself as female he's deluded. He might feel very uncomfortable with the expectations of men in his society/community, or he might feel desperately unhappy with his male body. I have some sympathy with that. Those things might mean he wants to present as far as possible as a woman, and have people treat him as he thinks a woman might be treated. I can see how he gets there, especially in a context in which men have been told that they can change sex. But if he actually comes to believe he's female, he's deluded. And of course some "trans woman" (trans-identifying men) are fetishists, getting their thrills from forcing other people, especially women, to validate their fetish. Neither of those groups of people can accurately be described as "recognising themselves as female".

I didn’t want you to feel alone.

But, of course, as Brighton las night reminds us, men who label themselves trans tend to retain male stereotyped aggression, violence, entitlement and misogyny, whilst only adopting trivial female stereotypes (make up and long hair) that aren;t even really female stereotypes any more.

Because even taking your post at face value, that’s not how it works on Mumsnet. If people read what they believe to be misinformation they are entitled to post disagreeing with it.

Indeed.

I’ve been really respectful. I’ve been polite. I’ve not been rude in any way.

I’ve had none of my questions answered.

as an aside, is not the mumsnet mods who decide what sits within and without guidelines on here? It’s not the posters themselves is it? So why would this thread be any different? Surely that would be a very bad idea for mumsnet to start to allow that?

You do know Debbie Hayton is AGP, right? He wrote about it in his book. He totally gets off on pretending to be a woman, he has said so.

And that is correct, in terms of biological sex, which is, in humans, binary.
Of course, it doesn't mean that within that sex, there isnt a great deal of diversity. Those diversities can be protected characteristics under the EA, eg a male could be protected under 'gender reassignment', or because he's black, or because he's gay, or because he's disabled etc. All those males are diverse. They are still males though. Or they could be males who are flamboyant, or boring, or nerdy, or enjoy spicy sex, or anything else. Still male.

There's no such thing as 'respectfully' telling women they can't define themselves but men can define themselves as women. That's still domination of women by males.

There's no such thing as 'respectfully' promoting sexist stereotypes as gender. That's just good old fashioned sexism with better PR.

There's no such thing as 'respectfully' coercing women to tolerate males in single sex services or allowing men access without women's knowledge. That's just non consensual.

There's no such thing as 'respectfully' emotionally blackmailing women by posting about 'what it's like being a trans woman and how they knew when they were six'. That's just flat out emotional abuse.

There's no such thing as 'respectfully' telling a lesbian that she should consider dating a transwoman or she's bigoted. That's not inclusive, that's just homophobic.

There's no such thing as 'respectfully' wanging on about civil rights and rights for ethic minorities and comparing black women to trans women. That's just flat out racist.

Come back to me when you've worked out the whole premise of the ideology is offensive and demeaning to women and can not ever possibly be 'respectful' because it's a flat out lie which has been weaponised to shame leading to women literally being convicted of the 'crime' of recognising material reality and threats to their physical wellbeing, educational opportunities, sporting achievements, scientific data and integrity, mental health and harms to their children.

It is impossible for a discussion which fails to recognise that women should have these equal rights to these things to be 'respectful'. The entire starting point is an exercise in disrespecting women and then trying to bully them into submission.