J.K Rowling's Position

[middler]

I am not a regular on these boards but I am aware of the controversy over J K Rowling's position as I have encountered so many young people who have become very hostile with me if I do not show that I do not go along with them in their views that she is the equivalent of a racist in her attitude towards racists. I try and stay neutral and not declare my views but that is not enough for them. They want tos ee you express the same vitriol that they have so they can be assured you are on the same side. I find it so anti democratic frankly.

Privately I was relieved with the British ruling that means trans women who may well still have a penis and all the bad actors who could then take full advantage of a law that allowed transwomen into women only spaces, are not allowed to access those women spaces. I appreciate that most transwomen just want to go about leading their daily lives identifying as women and using women spaces is part of that and they have no ill intent. But many do not have bottom surgery and so yes they still have a penis as do the men who can just wake up one day and say they identify as a woman and start using those women only spaces and not have good intent? What am I missing? Why don't the younger generation see this and get that it is a huge risk to women? Do they think that there will be no bad actors? I just do not get it. The law is not to punish transwomen. It's to protect women.

I am not without sympathy for transwomen who genuinely feel uncomfortable going into male spaces. I appreciate that they identify as female but I just feel it's a conflict of rights and that you cannot sacrifice the right of women to feel safe in a women only space so that the smaller % of transwomen do not feel uncomfortable. Safety trumps comfort.

I personally would not react to a transwoman being in a female toilet but then I am aware how do I know it is a genuine transwoman and not a bad actor so I appreciate other women not being comfortable.
Maybe we need additional gender neutral toilets in this day and age.

But when this topic comes up with many younger people I can tell that the fact that I do not join in with the hatred for JK Rowling, that it puts me in the pro JK Rowling camp and I do agree with her support of ensuring that law got passed.

I am not so sure about the comments she made about kids not being trans as I think some kids as teens do seem to think they are in the wrong gender, maybe not in the large numbers that we are seeing today but clearly some people do feel they were born in the wrong gender and as a society I think we do have to support them without sacrificing the rights of an other group.

Rowling has never expressed hate for transpeople as far as I am aware. I do think she can be provocative in how she expressed her views and that is her choice but I just do not understand how the younger generation claim she is the equivalent of a racist but with trans rights? The language they use about her is so strong and I really try to avoid conversations about her because it has become so divisive- it is hard to find a millennial who does not agree with Emma Watson's viewpoint.

I am not 100% up to date with all Rowling has said but what has she said that is so bad that the younger generation have such deep hatred for her? I am just trying to understand it better and be ready to respond to the vitriol I get from younger colleagues when it comes up as it does seem to.

I can’t drink alcohol due to menopause related reaction but thanks.

Your posts have given me lots of laughs today though.

Quite.

I hope OPs @middler s question has been thoroughly answered.

Partly by the sterling efforts of howse to dig out all the batshit nonsense ‘arguments’ wheeled out by trans activists over the years so she can see the full effect and rightly wonder how on earth so many people have been brainwashed to such an extent that they genuinely believe they are in the right and effectively women deserve no rights separate from men.

JKR stands up for women’s rights. If you think that takes away from trans people then you acknowledge the clash that must be addressed. And not by just forcing women to accept men wherever they want to be.

Yes, it’s always silly little men on Reddit who think they’re hilarious.

Well, Stella drinkers are called 'wife beaters' tbf.

The beer itself is nick named ‘wife beater’ and has been for years due to its high alcohol content.

There was a time some venues and caterers refused to serve it.

Men still getting very cross in here that women say they won't take their clothes off on command?

Yeah, still rolling on I see.

That crazy. It's only like 5% isn't it?

It's the quantity they drink that causes the aggression.

Stella drinkers seem to drink loads of it.

It is a combination of things.

Many other lagers are 3 or 4 %. Fosters in the UK is/was less than 3.5 % if I remember rightly and was one of the best selling lagers. Many bitters are also around 4-4.5%.

Being a lager also means it is chilled and there are some people who will drink chilled beer faster in warmer weather compared to a bitter.

Then there is being out in a group can also mean people will drink more because they will be keeping up with rounds. Or if it was a corporate event, staff could drink more because they were not paying. Plus if it was an hot day will increase intake and then amplify the effect of alcohol. All those sorts of things.

I remember organising work events at various places and some places refused to sell lagers of 5% ABV.

Here you are OP.

The group, 'Bash Back' (I kid you not), mentioned the fact that Rowling attended one of these events as reason enough to disrupt and try to stop this event going ahead.

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/25532194.live-brighton-centre-vandalised-feminist-conference-begins/

Another one for @UnintentionalArcher too .

This is the feminist conference starting this weekend in Brighton. Filia is a conference that covers all issues that feminists around the world are working on

Uh huh, a hooked nosed 'goblin' who controls alll the money

If you associate that with being Jewish, you are telling on yourself and your antisemitism. An own goal from you.

Howse

Howseitgoin · Yesterday 09:54

All she has to do is threaten to sue & they fold…

Yes well, they tend to do that, when a solicitor informs them that they can't win, as they've told an outright lie.

It seems that YOU'RE on fire!

Like a rain soaked mattress in a skip.

Argh!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5425134-national-trust-tampons

Here is the BBC coverage.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czxwv9njvlgo

I believe there was a Lab4trans rally the other day. It went ahead with no disruptions at all.

There is no symmetry. And any person who declares it that after so much oppression these male people are victims and that is why they are acting this way also misses the pertinent point. Female people have been oppressed for millennia.

Is the point those people making that female people are so used to oppression that we just don’t react in a way some people feel is justified if we too are ‘provoked’ enough? Would we be considered justified to act in the same way?

Or is it just that female people are expected to act like the carers and just absorb the threats, violence and intimidation so as not to make anyone feel bad? Or is it that we are so stupid we forgot that our very words provoke male people who lack the ability to consider anyone else in life, and / or control their angry emotional outbursts in public?

That JK Rowling had attended Filia previously was specifically mentioned by the group. She is not the main target, but how is that not threatening to her at all?

How is this attack on a conference centre not a threat for any future venue owner hosting either an event which once had her attending, that she once made a positive comment about or is an event related to her work?

Why do these groups think they have the right to act in such an authoritarian manner?

Another one for you @UnintentionalArcher

today women are being blocked out out of Filia.

https://x.com/brupe/status/1976905366408659182?s=46

I am going to point out that it is at Filia that women’s groups present what they are doing and what they see are the biggest issues women and girls are experiencing from around the world. It is thousands of women from around the world getting together to communicate their needs and workshop solutions. Including millennial women.

Now, I am going to point out your own statement:

“I think lots of millennials (and other women) would agree that issues like female spaces matter but would feel that the threat many argue is posed by trans rights (e.g. Rowling’s belief that GRC’s were the biggest threat to women’s rights in her lifetime) is overstated and potentially even dangerous for both women and trans women.”

You asked for information. I hope you found what others contributed valuable in informing yourself that actually, there is no symmetry here. Male people are threatening and intimidating feminists who seek to do all the things you agree are part of the women’s rights campaigns if they don’t comply with believing male people can be female people.

To be blunt. These male people are using violence to force the discussion to include and centre them. We would much rather be doing a huge range of things publicly, but we have to do them privately. It is foolish to believe that women are not working on a huge range of issues all at the same time even though our public attempts to meet are disrupted or cancelled.

However, it would also be just as foolish to think that we can be as effective if we cannot publicly talk about what we do.

The chilling effect is not overstated. At all.

More from BashBack.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5425523-welcome-to-a-new-era-of-trans-rage

Come on Kier. Out of the fridge like a big boy. Are you going to render women second class citizens, remove their legal rights and make it a compulsory term of employment and health care that you get your tits out for any man who chooses? Or are you going to try saying no and meaning it to a very small group of people with a great deal of issues with respect for others and following the law?

Make a decision. Quick. Before Nigel does, and we have real problems.

Yes Carlsberg is 3.4 , Heineken 3.8? * Normal Carlsberg I mean not that loony juice Special Brew. A lot of pubs refuse to sell snakebite too , lager and cider mixed. Too many fights apparently.

What I mean by 'genuine transwomen' is people who were born as men (remain men biologically whether they have bottom surgery or not and I agree many do not have bottom surgery from what I understand) but wish to live their lives as women. I am differentiating those people from what have been called 'bad actors' people who may put the costume of a woman on and may have the intention to do harm to women.

Maybe I occupy a middle ground as I do accept there are transpeople who wish to live their lives as a different gender to the one they were born in and I don't see those people as a 'threat to women' but at the same time I do understand why women do not want people (no matter how they identify) who have penises, in their women only spaces. As many have said on this thread (and I have not had time yet to read every post because there are a lot), it is simply impossible for women to discern between the harmless and the potentially harmful and why should they have to do that to accommodate a small group just so their feelings are protected. I just feel the safety of women trumps the feelings for transwomen I suppose and I do not understand why that is so hard for so many in the younger generation to see. Why must the feelings of what 0.5% of the population be prioritised over the safety of 50% of the population?

I do however understand that transpeople are a minority and also need protection so it seems the only solution is to have third spaces. For example it does not seem fair to put a transwoman in a male prison to me but nor is it fair for them to go in a female prison.
It's just the venom for Rowling that is so shocking to me- like there are huge swathes of younger people who are so militant if you do not agree with them, they dismiss you totally. I find it really off putting and makes me not want to engage with them at all which is a shame.

You're talking about middle ground. There is no middle ground you either let men in women's spaces or you don't. This is very much a male problem. If men who identify as not men want third spaces then they can crack on a fight for it.

For example it does not seem fair to put a transwoman in a male prison to me but nor is it fair for them to go in a female prison.

What do you suggest? It's all very well talking about being kind and middle ground but what does that look like in practical terms?

The reality is that if men who identify as not men don't feel safe in men's prisons then they can choose not to commit crime. Other than that they can fight for a wing inside the male prison estate that houses only men who identify as not men.

This is just my opinion but it really doesn't matter if a man is a "genuine trans woman" or not. He is a man regardless. I don't feel it's the job of women to aid men who identify as not men in society. As stated above this is a issue for men to deal with.

That. ^^ Beautifully put.

Consenting women wanting to embrace the middle ground of mixed sex provision for some men are welcome to go and explore this in the mixed sex gender neutral spaces. How they and those men work out which men and how they're going to gatekeep it is something I'm fascinated to hear about as it evolves, but I'll be in the single sex space.

Which will be there not only for the women who don't consent and are excluded from everything when other women hand their spaces to men in an attempt to be generous and open minded, so that men have life affirming preferred choices and women have nothing at all. It will also be there for the women who will sadly but inevitably have experiences in the mixed sex space caused by men that will make them considerably less consenting and willing to embrace them further.

Prisons, no. It's like teenaged girls in showers; not a situation women should be allowed to consent to with all the safeguarding risks and responsibilities involved for holding women in such circumstances anyway.

Specialist TQ wings, yes.

Alucard55 your manner of communicating is really acidic. If that is what you are going for, you are being effective.
I came on here to ask a genuine question and try and better understand an issue that like many people I have not looked into or read up on in the way it would seem some posters have on this thread, but I am trying to understand better.

The way you have come across on this post to me frankly with such bitterness towards me and with such a fast lack of generosity, honestly what you have to say...well being that way, it doesn't make people amenable to listen to you so you may want to think on that if in the real world you come across that way.

You are spouting nonsense that it's not fair to put a "trans woman" in a mans jail. Well what's your solution?

Only act this way with people who are playing at being naive. I do not believe that you don't understand this stuff.