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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Always been GC, but now afraid I'm becoming transphobic

674 replies

HouseOfGuineaPigs · 30/09/2025 23:07

I've always been gender critical and 100% in support of safe spaces for natal women only. I'm completely comfortable with being gender critical. But I'm concerned I've crossed a line into becoming a full on bigot, which is something I don't want to be. Due to my own background of mental health and trauma issues I follow pages on this issue on Facebook. I just saw one with a graphic post saying Using Preferred Pronouns Is Suicide Prevention and it made me want to scream and throw things.

I've been suicidal, I've attempted. I've battled see harm and self destructive behaviours since childhood. I should be sympathetic about the struggles people are having . But I feel manipulated seeing posts like that one. I use preferred names when I'm addressing trans persons. I am kind to them, I don't mention their issues. I treat them the same as anyone else. I will call a bloke Sue even if his real name is Bob, it feels odd, but I will do it to be respectful . But calling a he a she is a step too far. I would either use their name or use they.

Why do I feel so strongly that I'm being manipulated ? None of the trans people I know have abused me in any way. They haven't infringed on my boundaries . I have 2 trans friends, another who is non binary and 2 acquaintances. They have all been decent .

I just feel resentful that I'm being made to feel responsible for someone not taking their life because I don't affirm their identity ?

I'm horrible aren't I ? Please sort my head out !

OP posts:
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31
OldCrone · 02/10/2025 06:34

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 02:58

But they don't. Statistically trans-IDing males are no more like women in their behaviour than men in general, and tend to be over-represented in typically male behaviour e.g sex offending, aggression towards women, not caring about the feelings of women.

There's no evidence of trans women offending at the same rates of men. And even if there were that doesn't mean they don't share other behavioural inclinations women do. And using a 'prison' population IE an outlier population as reflective of the general population isn't how you do reliable data not to mention the numbers of trans people are so low they are statistically insignificant in terms of meaningful conclusions.

"TW (at least of the activist modern variety) are the (P?) patriarchy. They are trying to stop women from being allowed to exist as a natural category in order to prevent them having their own things and spaces. They want to dominate and invade women's lives. What do you mean "bodily autonomy" - males being allowed to shove their bodies wherever they like to the detriment of females? And you do know that phrase is also used by pedophiles, and by those who think children should not be safeguarded against having their health destroyed by "gender-affirming care" before they can properly consent."

Again, you are under the mistaken assumption (or wilfully ignorant) that competing rights can't be managed when as evidence they have. It's The Patriarchy that never provided for compromise as GC's don't.

'I didn't say ideological influences on language are new or unprecedented, I said this ideological attempt to make a word's definition include its opposite is doomed to fail because its political purpose ignores the fact that a category that needs a name will still exist in reality."

What you don't seem to understand or accept is that a sub category of gendered behavioural associations doesn't diminish the biological one. Both categories existing don't cancel each other out. You're making the absurd conclusion that maintaining sub categories will mean people can't tell the difference between a trans woman & a CIS woman when they clearly can. It's like saying 'how will people ever understand what a 'chair' means if we also use it to mean 'chair person'.

"No, pretending "biological determinism" means "women" don't need to actually be women is arse over tit (so to speak). We have a sex and it can't change. That doesn't mean what you can do must be determined by your sex (other than what you can do biologically, like give birth). It is not progressive to think that for women (or men) to be able to overcome patriarchal and sexist norms, they should deny their sex and harm their body. It is simply sexist because it's replacing biology with sexist gender stereotypes and making them the determiner."

The problem with this analysis is it doesn't comply with reality. The reality is we live in a world right or wrong where society has stereotypical gendered expectations. Trans people didn't 'invent' this broader society did. They are just aligning themselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender. If you have a problem with that then perhaps its CIS men & women you ought to take this grievance up with.

In terms of biological determinism, there's a reason why far right patriarchal devotees are 'suddenly' aligned with (GC) 'feminists' & that's because they believe biology is destiny & GC's are their useful idiot helferin who will deliver that for them. They understand that defining traits are inextricably linked to political outcomes. IE they'd love nothing more for a return to a 'safe' separate spheres of influence because that's what the body was 'designed' for IE back to time where women knew their rightful place…in the home having white babies.

"The arc of history does not just "move in the direction of liberty". There are many histories and many directions have been followed including towards the repressive, totalitarian and patriarchal. Look at the Islamic world over the last 50 years for example, or the history of Russia, China or the US at various points."

You are mistaking the corruption of leaders for the desires of the people they oppress. Big difference. In any case, where corruption is mitigated (The West) the progression towards liberty is indisputable. BTW despite the human rights abuses in Russia & China they aren't exactly patriarchal hell holes.

"The idea that individualism is a driving force in humanity is a very western one. I do value individualism myself, as I'm very western, but it's not the only view."

Really? Is that why immigration goes in the direction of it instead of against it?😂

Edited

There's no evidence of trans women offending at the same rates of men. And even if there were that doesn't mean they don't share other behavioural inclinations women do.

The problem with this analysis is it doesn't comply with reality. The reality is we live in a world right or wrong where society has stereotypical gendered expectations. Trans people didn't 'invent' this broader society did. They are just aligning themselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender.

I've picked out these points because they illustrate your complete lack of understanding of what people have been telling you.

You just love those gender stereotypes, don't you? And you don't understand that feminists hate them. They're restrictive and regressive and they want to take us back to a past when women were viewed as only good for having babies and looking after the menfolk.

You think being a woman is about conforming to stereotypes, behaving in a certain way and having "behavioural inclinations" that you believe are "womanly".

The fact that you think that people who identify as trans are just aligning themselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender illustrates this regressive view perfectly.

We don't want to align ourselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender.

We want to destroy the gendered expectations which restrict women to certain activities, behaviours and lifestyles. Anyone wanting to align themselves with those gendered expectations is just propping them up and working against us.

We are real people, with all sorts of different personalities who don't want to be restricted by a regressive gender straitjacket.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2025 06:42

For a sub-category to exist, the population within the sub-category needs to also belong to the category overall.

The category is female people. No male people fit into that category in anyway.

Not even those male people using postmodernism and other philosophical theories to fit. Personality traits, that are highly changeable given occasion and over time, are not categorisation critieria for a biologically defined category.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2025 06:47

If the category was ‘people who fit consistently over time into showing a significant degree of this personality trait’, it would include both male and female people. People can create a new label for this group. What they cannot do is simply use an existing category label that doesn’t fit the definition.

Of course, they can try.

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 07:19

OldCrone · 02/10/2025 06:34

There's no evidence of trans women offending at the same rates of men. And even if there were that doesn't mean they don't share other behavioural inclinations women do.

The problem with this analysis is it doesn't comply with reality. The reality is we live in a world right or wrong where society has stereotypical gendered expectations. Trans people didn't 'invent' this broader society did. They are just aligning themselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender.

I've picked out these points because they illustrate your complete lack of understanding of what people have been telling you.

You just love those gender stereotypes, don't you? And you don't understand that feminists hate them. They're restrictive and regressive and they want to take us back to a past when women were viewed as only good for having babies and looking after the menfolk.

You think being a woman is about conforming to stereotypes, behaving in a certain way and having "behavioural inclinations" that you believe are "womanly".

The fact that you think that people who identify as trans are just aligning themselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender illustrates this regressive view perfectly.

We don't want to align ourselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender.

We want to destroy the gendered expectations which restrict women to certain activities, behaviours and lifestyles. Anyone wanting to align themselves with those gendered expectations is just propping them up and working against us.

We are real people, with all sorts of different personalities who don't want to be restricted by a regressive gender straitjacket.

"We don't want to align ourselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender."

Um, I hate to break the news to you, but most women enthusiastically embrace gender stereotypical behaviour. That's why its a stereotype. You seem to be under the mistaken understanding that I am making a prescriptive statement about stereotypes when I am in fact being descriptive of reality. The reality of women's overwhelming choices that you think you have the moral authority over.

Iv'e said before & I'll say it again, GC's are as judgemental & authoritative as the patriarchy when it comes to women's choices on how they want to live their lives

Namelessnelly · 02/10/2025 07:23

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 07:19

"We don't want to align ourselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender."

Um, I hate to break the news to you, but most women enthusiastically embrace gender stereotypical behaviour. That's why its a stereotype. You seem to be under the mistaken understanding that I am making a prescriptive statement about stereotypes when I am in fact being descriptive of reality. The reality of women's overwhelming choices that you think you have the moral authority over.

Iv'e said before & I'll say it again, GC's are as judgemental & authoritative as the patriarchy when it comes to women's choices on how they want to live their lives

So are you saying if we got rid of all gender stereotypes transwomen would not be counted as women? So their only claim to being a woman is following sexistgendered stereotypes? In that case, that gives women even more reason to smash those stereotypes doesn’t it. BTW do you realise how sexist you sound? Just giving you a hint in case you didn’t mean to come across as a sexist misogynistic male mansplaining to women about what a woman is.

DeanElderberry · 02/10/2025 07:24

'Woman' is not a social category. It is the word used to describe an adult human of the female sex.

The socialisation the adult human female has received cannot in any way enhance or detract from her being a woman.

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 07:30

DeanElderberry · 02/10/2025 07:24

'Woman' is not a social category. It is the word used to describe an adult human of the female sex.

The socialisation the adult human female has received cannot in any way enhance or detract from her being a woman.

Thank you for your opinion. But reality begs to differ.

OldCrone · 02/10/2025 07:38

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 07:19

"We don't want to align ourselves with the mainstream societal expectations about how people should act, think, and feel based on their perceived gender."

Um, I hate to break the news to you, but most women enthusiastically embrace gender stereotypical behaviour. That's why its a stereotype. You seem to be under the mistaken understanding that I am making a prescriptive statement about stereotypes when I am in fact being descriptive of reality. The reality of women's overwhelming choices that you think you have the moral authority over.

Iv'e said before & I'll say it again, GC's are as judgemental & authoritative as the patriarchy when it comes to women's choices on how they want to live their lives

Thank you kind sir for this mansplaining explanation of what women want and what women do. Where would all us silly airheaded females be without you manly men stepping in to mansplain to us on a regular basis?

Um, I hate to break the news to you, but most women enthusiastically embrace gender stereotypical behaviour. That's why its a stereotype.

Go on then. Give some examples of what sort of behaviour you're talking about.

You seem to be under the mistaken understanding that I am making a prescriptive statement about stereotypes when I am in fact being descriptive of reality.

Your reality. Which doesn't even seem to inhabit the same continent as mine.

But even if some men do mimic what they think is stereotypical female behaviour, it doesn't make them any sort of woman. It just makes them men performing a parody of what they think is womanly behaviour.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 02/10/2025 07:39

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 07:30

Thank you for your opinion. But reality begs to differ.

of course it doesn't you clown but you keep on doing our work for us. I mean if I were a trans person you are the last spokesperson I would want coming on to MN to pontificate at women to be kind with your male socialisation dripping from every pore. Every word, every sentence , every long AI generated word salad essay reinforces the need for men however they identify to stay out of women's spaces

Theeyeballsinthesky · 02/10/2025 07:41

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 07:30

Thank you for your opinion. But reality begs to differ.

dbl post

Guytheskiinstructor · 02/10/2025 07:45

@Howseitgoin, you’re right, there’s no evidence trans identifying males sexually offend at the same rate as other males. According to DOJ figures, their offending is higher.

And as for competing rights, how exactly are these being managed? It seems to me that, in the UK, the law is finally catching up with gender ideology activists’ demands and fairness and clarity are returning.

The problem you and your fellow ideologues ultimately have is that you have had no choice but to concede, in the face of science, reason and everyday material reality, that sex is real while still continuing to claim that “gender identity” is somehow valid too. (The Butlerian argument that sex is just a “speech act” etc seems to have vanished. For now at least!) And you now somehow have to make the case that “gender identity” matters more and to achieve that you have to force everyone into believing that they have one. That’s a tough one! Because of your other, equally fundamental, problem which is that you can’t define your terms. What is “gender identity” and “trans” exactly and who should be allowed to “transition” and therefore be given full access to opposite sex facilities, categories, language, legal protections (or absence of them) etc.? Is it the poor, depressed, obese, not conventionally attractive young female with lesbian feelings who seeks an escape from the gendered expectations so enthusiastically endorsed by your gender identity crowd? Or is it “Barbie Kardashian”, unstable, misogynistic, violent male. Can a “transwoman” retain that designation even if they rape a woman?

Underthinker · 02/10/2025 07:45

You can use woman to mean adult human female, as most people have through history.

You can use woman to mean anyone who identifies as a woman, daft as that definition is, no one can stop you meaning that when you say woman.

GCs and TRAs have both made their case to society over the last few years and overwhelmingly people now reject your fad of woman being an identity that anyone can adopt. It was just too ridiculous to last for very long.

DeanElderberry · 02/10/2025 07:45

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 07:30

Thank you for your opinion. But reality begs to differ.

That was not an opinion. It was a statement of fact,

If you want a word, get your own. Don't try to steal ours.

Woman - Adult human female

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 07:52

Howseitgoin · 01/10/2025 22:59

There's this thing called 'sub categories'. It's why the pre fix 'trans' & 'CIS' is used. There's no suggestion that trans women are identical to CIS women rather both have associations to the social category of 'woman'. Trans women do in terms of typical behavioural associations & CIS women because of biological social associations. You are suggesting sub categories are problematic because they are mutually exclusive in terms of real world outcomes but that's patently false. Managing competing rights isn't an impossibility for many issues & as evidenced in terms of women's sports being conditional for trans women, gender affirming care being restricted under research & holistic conditions, risk assessment for prisons, private rooms in hospitals & bathroom access being restructured where public concern warrants it.

"Yes, language changes, yes it's a social construct, but understanding that is not the same as pushing to change the definition of a word to include its opposite for political reasons. Language change tends to be a process of gradually shifting meanings that are adopted and promoted by younger/disempowered/countercultural groups and resisted by the older/empowered/establishment groups in what is arguably a natural process that involves a tension, but allows language to change gradually enough that it remains cohesive and generally understood."

You realise that The Patriarchy traditionally shaped language right? The idea language hasn't always been at the mercy of ideological influences is a hot one. Transgenderism becoming mainstream & changing the language is no different from feminism. They are both underpinned by a demand for bodily autonomy & self determination that's been shackled in the past by biological essentialism. The arc of history moves in the direction of liberty because the desire to express one's individualism is built into human nature. Transgenderism while being a political movement just like feminism is a logical consequence of this.

Being confused by progressive liberal social change is as old as time as conservatives are by their resistance to equality.

"When you are used to privilege, everything feels like oppression"…

Edited

Women are not a 'sub category' of our sex. But that is the entire purpose of creating 'cis' (and I don't know why you capitalise cis. It is not an acronym, so doesn't need capitalisation) is to make women a sub category of ourselves. It's misogyny in action.

Trans women do in terms of typical behavioural associations & CIS women because of biological social associations. You are suggesting sub categories are problematic because they are mutually exclusive in terms of real world outcomes but that's patently false. Managing competing rights isn't an impossibility for many issues & as evidenced in terms of women's sports being conditional for trans women, gender affirming care being restricted under research & holistic conditions, risk assessment for prisons, private rooms in hospitals & bathroom access being restructured where public concern warrants it.

Could you actually speak like a normal human being instead of some programmed robot that is using AI? That word salad is a mess and I know you think you sound 'smart', you don't, you just sound like you are desperate and trying way too hard.

Trying to decipher the rest of your post is giving me a headache, but;

You realise that The Patriarchy traditionally shaped language right?

As you have proven right here. By calling us cis women, you men are using your male privilege and patriarchy to rename us to suit your misogynistic purposes.

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 08:02

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 07:30

Thank you for your opinion. But reality begs to differ.

Er, reality says that the definition of a woman is an adult human female. That is the legal, medical, scientific and societal term. A woman is not a 'construct'. Woman is a sexed term and refers to actual physical reality.

So reality begs to differ with you and your unscientific fantasy.

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 08:49

NeonFish · 02/10/2025 08:02

Er, reality says that the definition of a woman is an adult human female. That is the legal, medical, scientific and societal term. A woman is not a 'construct'. Woman is a sexed term and refers to actual physical reality.

So reality begs to differ with you and your unscientific fantasy.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/female

female
adjective
UK
/ˈfiː.meɪl/ US
/ˈfiː.meɪl/
female adjective (GENDER)
Add to word list
belonging or relating to women or girls:

😂

belonging

1. a feeling of being happy or comfortable as part of a particular group and…

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/belonging

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 08:50

DeanElderberry · 02/10/2025 07:45

That was not an opinion. It was a statement of fact,

If you want a word, get your own. Don't try to steal ours.

Woman - Adult human female

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/female

female
adjective
UK
/ˈfiː.meɪl/ US
/ˈfiː.meɪl/
female adjective (GENDER)
Add to word list
belonging or relating to women or girls:
😂

belonging

1. a feeling of being happy or comfortable as part of a particular group and…

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/belonging

Silverbirchleaf · 02/10/2025 08:51

@Howseitgoin

”There's this thing called 'sub categories'. It's why the pre fix 'trans' & 'CIS' is used. There's no suggestion that trans women are identical to CIS women rather both have associations to the social category of 'woman'. Trans women do in terms of typical behavioural associations & CIS women because of biological social associations.”

I have issues with the ‘typical behavioural associations’ assumption you have because most Women don’t conform to these gender stereotypes, that’s trans people abide by. Women have been fighting against these stereotypes for years, and suddenly, the trans community have dictated, that ‘they’re woman because they wear lipstick and pink’. So by default, if you play football, rugby, then you’re a man because these are gendered male activities. (I know this an over simplification).

You say there’s no suggestion that trans are identical to real women (refusing to use the cis label), but that’s what many assert.

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 08:56

Guytheskiinstructor · 02/10/2025 07:45

@Howseitgoin, you’re right, there’s no evidence trans identifying males sexually offend at the same rate as other males. According to DOJ figures, their offending is higher.

And as for competing rights, how exactly are these being managed? It seems to me that, in the UK, the law is finally catching up with gender ideology activists’ demands and fairness and clarity are returning.

The problem you and your fellow ideologues ultimately have is that you have had no choice but to concede, in the face of science, reason and everyday material reality, that sex is real while still continuing to claim that “gender identity” is somehow valid too. (The Butlerian argument that sex is just a “speech act” etc seems to have vanished. For now at least!) And you now somehow have to make the case that “gender identity” matters more and to achieve that you have to force everyone into believing that they have one. That’s a tough one! Because of your other, equally fundamental, problem which is that you can’t define your terms. What is “gender identity” and “trans” exactly and who should be allowed to “transition” and therefore be given full access to opposite sex facilities, categories, language, legal protections (or absence of them) etc.? Is it the poor, depressed, obese, not conventionally attractive young female with lesbian feelings who seeks an escape from the gendered expectations so enthusiastically endorsed by your gender identity crowd? Or is it “Barbie Kardashian”, unstable, misogynistic, violent male. Can a “transwoman” retain that designation even if they rape a woman?

^, you’re right, there’s no evidence trans identifying males sexually offend at the same rate as other males. According to DOJ figures, their offending is higher.^

Evidence?

And as for competing rights, how exactly are these being managed? It seems to me that, in the UK, the law is finally catching up with gender ideology activists’ demands and fairness and clarity are returning.

Well done! You answered your own question.

"The problem you and your fellow ideologues ultimately have is that you have had no choice but to concede, in the face of science, reason and everyday material reality, that sex is real while still continuing to claim that “gender identity” is somehow valid too. (The Butlerian argument that sex is just a “speech act” etc seems to have vanished. For now at least!) And you now somehow have to make the case that “gender identity” matters more and to achieve that you have to force everyone into believing that they have one. That’s a tough one! Because of your other, equally fundamental, problem which is that you can’t define your terms. What is “gender identity” and “trans” exactly and who should be allowed to “transition” and therefore be given full access to opposite sex facilities, categories, language, legal protections (or absence of them) etc.? Is it the poor, depressed, obese, not conventionally attractive young female with lesbian feelings who seeks an escape from the gendered expectations so enthusiastically endorsed by your gender identity crowd? Or is it “Barbie Kardashian”, unstable, misogynistic, violent male. Can a “transwoman” retain that designation even if they rape a woman?"

This has already been covered upthread regarding social categories & stereotypes that "gender ideologues" didn't invent & you would know that if you had a modicum of contact the reality that you yourself participate in maintaining.

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 08:58

Silverbirchleaf · 02/10/2025 08:51

@Howseitgoin

”There's this thing called 'sub categories'. It's why the pre fix 'trans' & 'CIS' is used. There's no suggestion that trans women are identical to CIS women rather both have associations to the social category of 'woman'. Trans women do in terms of typical behavioural associations & CIS women because of biological social associations.”

I have issues with the ‘typical behavioural associations’ assumption you have because most Women don’t conform to these gender stereotypes, that’s trans people abide by. Women have been fighting against these stereotypes for years, and suddenly, the trans community have dictated, that ‘they’re woman because they wear lipstick and pink’. So by default, if you play football, rugby, then you’re a man because these are gendered male activities. (I know this an over simplification).

You say there’s no suggestion that trans are identical to real women (refusing to use the cis label), but that’s what many assert.

I have issues with the ‘typical behavioural associations’ assumption you have because most Women don’t conform to these gender stereotypes,

Seriously? Dear, you need to get out more & lay off the GC kool aid.

OldCrone · 02/10/2025 09:01

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 08:58

I have issues with the ‘typical behavioural associations’ assumption you have because most Women don’t conform to these gender stereotypes,

Seriously? Dear, you need to get out more & lay off the GC kool aid.

You need to get out more and meet some real women. If they don't run a mile when you appear.

So-called "transwomen" aren't real women.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2025 09:08

'You realise that The Patriarchy traditionally shaped language right?'

This is great!

Surely someone using this argument would also understand that it is highly likely that if it was the Matriarchy shaping language, there would still be a word specifically and uniquely for female humans who have matured past puberty. Or is there some evidence that female people would recategorise the world around them any differently in the respect of categorising sex classes?

I am here to enjoy someone trying to argue that female people would not use the same categorisation for human sex class.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2025 09:09

and we are back to dictionary links

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/10/2025 09:12

Underthinker · 02/10/2025 07:45

You can use woman to mean adult human female, as most people have through history.

You can use woman to mean anyone who identifies as a woman, daft as that definition is, no one can stop you meaning that when you say woman.

GCs and TRAs have both made their case to society over the last few years and overwhelmingly people now reject your fad of woman being an identity that anyone can adopt. It was just too ridiculous to last for very long.

Yep.

OldCrone · 02/10/2025 09:17

Howseitgoin · 02/10/2025 08:58

I have issues with the ‘typical behavioural associations’ assumption you have because most Women don’t conform to these gender stereotypes,

Seriously? Dear, you need to get out more & lay off the GC kool aid.

Come on then Mr Manly Mansplainer. What are these gender stereotypes that you think most women conform to? Or is that too difficult because you can't just post a link to an online dictionary?