Charlie Kirk shot during a debate about trans people

[feministmom4ever]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15086277/Charlie-Kirks-final-words-assassinated-Utah-dead.html

I didn’t agree with many of his political views, but I liked how he interacted with college students who couldn’t answer the question “what is a woman?”.

I think we can sometimes be a bit nostalgic for the old school transsexuals because we all tacitly accepted that it was a polite fiction. We know Denise is really Dennis, and Denise certainly understands that he's male, but we know and like Denise and we don't want to be assholes.

It's been disconcerting to see a new generation coming up who have been marinated in gender theory in school and college, and who literally believe that human beings can change sex. That's the danger of operating a polite fiction where we can't actually say it's a polite fiction.

I wonder if there's something similar going on with extreme and violent rhetoric from the trans community. Like there might be older transpeople who are just indulging in dramatic hyperbole, but they're also grooming a generation of Hong Wei Bing who will take their words literally and act on them.

If you've convinced mentally ill youngsters that society is mostly composed of fascists who hate them and want to kill them, the chances are good that at least a few will be unhinged enough to do something atrocious.

Not the point of the thread, Eresh, is it? Are you inviting a derail? And of course, as a woman, I love violent rhetoric. Ridiculous thing to ask

Over on BlueHair they have so very kindly, liberally and progressively suggested that “JK Rowling should be next”:

https://www.thetimes.com/article/5b882ed0-617b-4111-8617-02d0a0bc0114?shareToken=19f49482dff40fa163489261c7b74e02

People have made such accusations, one recent post on this thread said 'I'm horrified that people are celebrating someone being murdered for their opinions, I don't see that it much matters whether it's happening on MN... etc'

No one has celebrated his murder on this thread. It's a weird form of virtue signalling to preach to the converted.

Those points could be trans and other related stuff or conservative stuff such as gun rights. You are simply making the assumption that it's about race, womens rights, gays.

Whilst you're making an assumption that it's not.

I agree with you.
I started one of the threads about Charlie Kirk that was taken down by Mumsnet (at my request). I'm heartened to see this thread hasn't descended into the madness that I was faced with but is, as I had imagined it would be, full of measured, calm and considered views.

When I posted, tensions were high. Charlie Kirk had been injured but his fate was unknown. It was truly horrific to see the vile posts about him and at the anger that was being directed at me for having the gall to post about him on a feminist board. People were questioning my motives, my identity (calling me a TRA when I'm an Irish GC woman) . My reason for posting was because I only knew him in the context of his gender critical discussions, I was shocked that he had been shot for sharing his opinions and worried about what it meant for society and for free speech and where this would lead us.
It was very upsetting during the course of that discussion, and feeling the wrath of people's vitriol, to hear he had died and to see the lack of empathy people had for a young family man with a wife and two kids. I can only imagine what it must be like for people to deal with online/in person abuse every day and am I extremely worried about where this will all go. It's exposed a very ugly side of human nature and I think open honest discussion is the best way forward.

Or agreement to a degree but not entirely. For instance I got married and had my first child over 30 and since then have been critical of the narrative I was fed that having a family in one's 20s was low-class, unambitious, boring, settling etc; and I feel something is wrong when friends who I know would love to start a family are given dating, relationship and career advice that actively makes that less likely to happen for them.

Doesn't mean I want all women in the kitchen.

Similarly I'm sure there may be posters here who feel uncomfortable with "shout your abortion" culture but don't want to restrict 10yo rape victims, etc.

Most things are not hard lines that you have to be 100% in support of or against!

I have seen much less hostile action here compared to on other sites/real life, but there are definitely a lot of people who were happy to see him assassinated. It’s not a fringe online minority sadly.

I’m commenting on your dismissive attitude, and IMO it’s extremely relevant to this thread, in FWR. I think your own biases are showing.

I recently tried to tell someone about the Zizian cult and they flat out didn't believe me because it sounded like a conspiracy theory.

I think if you don't have that context and if you haven't seen footage or been at GC events you don't have a good grasp of how literally insane some of these people are.

PP are completely right that "trans gun cult" is absolutely a thing at this point, but it's been so underappreciated. Probably because it breaks narratives for both sides!

Trans is relevant to FWR, but this thread is discussing Charlie Kirk in particular - unless you wish to tie trans into it without solid evidence. My attitude isn’t dismissive, just different to yours.

Yes a keen Tory i know, said similar, she didn't like his views on child rape victims forced to carry on with pregnancy and his grey area comment on date rape.
I must say he had some very odd ideas but no one deserves to be murdered for them.

It seems people like Tate and Kirk draw in many from the right, why?

This thread is discussing Charlie Kirk in the wider context of online violent rhetoric and glorifying violence based on political opposition. That’s why it’s relevant to FWR. Cat’s post was more relevant than your theories about Mossad.

There used to be a sports columnist in America, I've forgotten his name, who would say "I think I think", and I've long thought that's a good discipline. Especially because I spent a long time in environments where you were supposed to be 100% sure of everything and you'd get a very hostile response if you were at all sceptical (and many of the things you were supposed to be sure of weren't true)

One big reason I like Mary Harrington is not because I go all the way with her ideas - I don't think even Mary does - but because she's very good at taking ideas for a walk and seeing where they lead her. Especially when I'm not sure about something, I like having space to think aloud.

And very much agree, lots of issues are not yes/no questions, they're negotiations where most of us end up in the messy middle. People who divide the world into goodies who are right about everything and baddies who are wrong about everything have trouble grasping this.

Women are constantly being threatened by trans rights activists and I pointed out very early on in this thread how they celebrated the death of Magdalen Berns. JKR has been suggested as the next target for assassination by multiple posters on Bluesky.

As pp said trans rights activists, many of them incel type men whether “trans” or not, reify gun culture and have a planet sized sense of resentment of others, particularly women who they perceive as “oppressing” them simply by saying no and campaigning for women’s rights.

Sarah Jane Baker is a violent torturer, kidnapper and attempted murderer who publicly called for people to punch the next “terf” they saw.

thats the relevance to FWR @VoulezVouz

Agree, I subscribe to Mary’s Substack. She said something I really disagreed with the other day, but it doesn’t negate all the times she has made points I think are bang on.

Yes, well, a majority of the electorate didn’t plan to vote for Brexit either, and look how well that went.

Those who voted for Brexit were so p*d off they were willing to turn out and vote in the pouring rain. Too many of those who wished to Remain were so confident they’d win - that they looked at the weather and didn’t bother.

If Reform voters are so annoyed with the two main parties that they all turn out - and the voters for Labour and Tories are sufficiently disillusioned that they don’t- we’ll have an electoral collapse for the two mains anda Reform government.

You know, for someone who keeps trying to assume some sort of moral high ground and tell other people what to do, you do repeatedly keep falling into the basic beginner's trap of assuming you think you know what other people are feeling when they express a different standpoint from you.

I was speaking generally. I have definitely seen this.

They've caught him

Trump reveals Charlie Kirk shooting suspect is in custody https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15091957/Trump-reveals-Charlie-Kirk-shooter-custody.html?ito=native_share_article-nativemenubutton

There are reports that a suspect has been arrested. It sounds like they're confident they've got a strong suspect.

Definitely agree.

Thank God.

Being completely honest, given they've already had two people in custody who were subsequently released, I don't think I'll be believing this until it's formally announced by the FBI.

Trump has a tendency to ramble and speak without thinking....