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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 09:43

VoulezVouz · 12/09/2025 09:34

Thanks for this commentary. Enough people on this thread seem to agree with his ideas and beliefs. Are you denying them?

I don’t support CK’s ideology. I think his murder is abhorrent and I’ve already stated that on other threads. Both things can be true at the same time.

Why not find a quote of someone who said they agree with one of his beliefs and ask them, rather than make vague slurs about all the feminists on the thread? If you think I’ve made such a comment, for example, ask me to clarify. Because I’m not a racist, religious or anti abortion, if that helps. I don’t believe men are women though, and I do think it’s a problem, if that’s what you’re driving at.

eta that I wrote a double negative and changed pro to anti!

VoulezVouz · 12/09/2025 09:47

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 09:11

This. Fairly predictable from certain posters.

Yes, it is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 09:49

I’m glad we agree on something @VoulezVouz

SionnachRuadh · 12/09/2025 09:50

The stupid/evil division is a real one. The idea that you find on the left, that left wing people are ex officio good people, and that right wing people are somehow morally deficient, is a self-flattering story that left wing people tell each other. Sometimes they say their problem is that they're too kind and empathetic.

There's a minor example upthread where posters are mocking Megyn Kelly for her broadcasting on CK's death, her "theatrical crying" etc. That's a woman being policed for her response to her friend's murder by people who no doubt regard themselves as kind and empathic - because MK is a woman on the right, so by definition she doesn't have any feelings.

All of us, from different backgrounds or tribes or demographics, tell ourselves stories that make us feel good. Often they're harmless. Sometimes they become harmful, because they're false or they blind us to our faults or they dehumanise those outside the tribe.

My impression is that the left does this more than the right, maybe that's the people I know, maybe reasons speculated on above are relevant. Leaving aside murder - I know this is a small thing, but when a political figure dies a natural death, and I see people on Facebook gloating over it before the body is cold, almost invariably it will be a figure on the right (not necessarily far right, could as easily be centre right) and the people doing the gloating will be left wing people who believe themselves to be kind and empathetic and morally good, and definitely not childish and creepy.

I'm not saying right wingers never do that, but you'd have to be talking about someone like Fidel Castro, and even then they don't make a whole spectacle about how happy they are.

These people on the left really do think that they belong to the community of the righteous, and they get to judge everyone else, including whether they deserve to live or die. But, seen with the distance of exile, that community looks more like The Crucible.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 09:53

And as you suggest @SionnachRuadh this dynamic only becomes clear when you’re cast out of the group, like gender critical feminists have been, for the heinous crime of not agreeing that a man who identifies as a woman is the same in all ways as a woman.

Excellent post.

Robin67 · 12/09/2025 09:55

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 11/09/2025 23:07

That's a very Eurocentric view.

Racism Is Alive and Well in China – The Diplomat

The article might be a few years old but not much has changed since, racism is not just something white people do.

I think your last sentence is fair. However, as a centrist with occasional right leaning views I feel that the left take issue with attitudes and behaviours (which can be changed or at least modified to an extent in public) whereas the right take issues with things that can't be changed (sex, ethnicity, sexuality). Both take issue with religion. It's okay to abhor someone's views, but not to abhor the person themselves because of something they can't help (such as skin colour). We all should have the right to free speech. We all have opinions, some of which will offend others. A normal adult doesn't go out of their way to put someone else, or their whole community, down for no reason.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 09:57

ArabellaSaurus · 12/09/2025 09:38

Feminists should start considering how to address that now.

What damage might Labour do on its way out?

Reform are fairly TWAW. And reactive, and irrational. How to handle that?

A coalition government might still happen. In which case the broad cross party nature of 'gender critical' feminism will be a strength.

You really think Reform at TWAW??!

Honestly?

I don't.

Good luck to Farage trying passing anything in law in parliament based on TWAW.

Removal of the Equality Act, and harsher reactions to other things. Yes.

But nothing based on a sense of victimhood - nope. That's dead in the water.

Farage only has one vote in the commons - he has to persuade everyone else to vote with him still.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 10:01

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 09:57

You really think Reform at TWAW??!

Honestly?

I don't.

Good luck to Farage trying passing anything in law in parliament based on TWAW.

Removal of the Equality Act, and harsher reactions to other things. Yes.

But nothing based on a sense of victimhood - nope. That's dead in the water.

Farage only has one vote in the commons - he has to persuade everyone else to vote with him still.

I think maybe because of that prison spokeswoman they appointed who said that some male prisoners should be housed in the women’s estate ? I doubt Farage takes it particularly seriously either way, but I imagine he will use it to take the piss out of Labour, Lib Dems, Greens if he sees an opportunity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 10:02

Reform’s supporters and target voters certainly aren’t TWAW.

VoulezVouz · 12/09/2025 10:04

Retiredfromthere · 12/09/2025 09:25

@Voulezvous re. your 'I'm, fascinated, but not surprised, that so-called feminists ...' post with suggestions that this is somehow damning for members of this board to express sympathy, curiosity and speculation about his death and how that happened.

I refer you to the JKR post copied into this thread:

If you believe free speech is for you but not your political opponents, you're illiberal.
If no contrary evidence could change your beliefs, you're a fundamentalist.
If you believe the state should punish those with contrary views, you're a totalitarian.
If you believe political opponents should be punished with violence or death, you're a terrorist.

It seems to me that the TRA side of this 'debate' consider that anyone who disagrees with TWAW/TMAM unreflectively want to extinguish trans people and trans ideology. I think that the people on this board want to question and find out more and understand. I did not know CK but he is reputed to want to talk, respectfully, listening. He may not have had views that you/I/others like but he was entitled to free speech, from what BuckAngel says on his podcast CK was capable of changing views, he provided a platform to air those with opposing views and he did not deserve death or violence or threats of either. He was acting legally when he was shot.

We should ask whether this was an escalation in trans activism. It concerns all of us if it is. To not ask and not have the freedom to ask (open mindedly) would be significant. Its not anti-feminist to ask. Please let's carry on asking ... even if it leads us into considering uncomfortable truths and ideas that we would not own as ours.

If ‘sympathy, curiosity and speculation’ about this death was where it stopped, that would be fine. But the pre-blaming it on trans people seems - inflammatory. We don’t know much yet about any suspect. There is much false information flying around. Attempting to fit it into this ideology or that for our own ends seems a disservice to him.

ArabellaSaurus · 12/09/2025 10:07

I know virtually nothing about Charlie Kirk. What I find curious is people declaring they are waiting to see who killed him and why before they comment - as if there might be some ameliorating circumstances dependant on the motivation or politics of the assassin.

Murdering people is wrong, and when that needs pointed out I feel like it's a sign we are already in dangerous territory.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 10:09

People are discussing suggestions made in respectable mass media publications that there were antifa style slogans written on the bullet. That may well be false, but posters here didn’t invent it.

ArabellaSaurus · 12/09/2025 10:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 10:01

I think maybe because of that prison spokeswoman they appointed who said that some male prisoners should be housed in the women’s estate ? I doubt Farage takes it particularly seriously either way, but I imagine he will use it to take the piss out of Labour, Lib Dems, Greens if he sees an opportunity.

Thats what I had in mind, yep. Agree Farage won't care either way and I can imagine policies could be unpredictable and dependant on fickle partisan deals etc.

ArabellaSaurus · 12/09/2025 10:16

The Brexit Party stood two transwomen candidates in 2019.

www.thepinknews.com/2019/09/05/the-brexit-party-just-revealed-its-second-transgender-candidate-for-the-next-general-election/

Alexandra2001 · 12/09/2025 10:17

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2025 09:18

That's not how I understand the history of politics in this country over the past 20 years at all.

None of what i said is incorrect..... even if it doesn't match your views.

The Welfare state was never set up to be a life style, yet for many, thats what it has become, much of which has occurred under the Cons, using sickness benefits to keep unemployment figures low, using immigration to boost GDP grwth.

happydappy2 · 12/09/2025 10:25

CK talked to people who mistakenly believed they were trans, with kindness and warmth. He made the valid point that they probably needed to address their underlying mental health issues, rather than take cross sex hormones and undergo needless surgeries. He encouraged people to love themselves as they were. Thats not hateful!

SionnachRuadh · 12/09/2025 10:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 10:01

I think maybe because of that prison spokeswoman they appointed who said that some male prisoners should be housed in the women’s estate ? I doubt Farage takes it particularly seriously either way, but I imagine he will use it to take the piss out of Labour, Lib Dems, Greens if he sees an opportunity.

Yes, and she's an ex-governor who was probably thinking in operational terms - what would I exceptionally do with hard cases? - more than policy terms. Her idea seems to have got a giant raspberry from women in Reform, and I doubt we'll hear of it again.

Pollsters are making the point that at the moment the average Reform voter looks very like the average voter full stop - we're not in 2010 when UKIP supporters were a definite golf club and red trousers subculture. You can see that when Politics Joe do their vox pops - they were up in Ashton-under-Lyne the other day - and they regularly turn up people who were completely typical Labour voters and are now Reform.

It's really not Farage's fault if the centre left choose to detach themselves from reality.

Alexandra2001 · 12/09/2025 10:39

SionnachRuadh · 12/09/2025 10:26

Yes, and she's an ex-governor who was probably thinking in operational terms - what would I exceptionally do with hard cases? - more than policy terms. Her idea seems to have got a giant raspberry from women in Reform, and I doubt we'll hear of it again.

Pollsters are making the point that at the moment the average Reform voter looks very like the average voter full stop - we're not in 2010 when UKIP supporters were a definite golf club and red trousers subculture. You can see that when Politics Joe do their vox pops - they were up in Ashton-under-Lyne the other day - and they regularly turn up people who were completely typical Labour voters and are now Reform.

It's really not Farage's fault if the centre left choose to detach themselves from reality.

Yet approx 70% of the electorate are not planning on voting Reform...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/09/2025 10:40

Reform, like Kirk also seem to be quite good at talking to younger people, they’re closer to the Greens in that respect than Labour or the Tories. The traditional parties will have to up their game.

nomas · 12/09/2025 10:42

Batmanisaplaceinturkey · 12/09/2025 04:04

This.
But somehow if you call it out it means you support his murder. Scratching my head at this one!
On the subject of extreme left wing being as bad as right, as a woman with brown skin I'm far safer in a left wing space than I am in a right wing one.

This! There are people defending his views, which is allowed because it’s free speech. But when anyone criticise his views, they are accused of wanting him dead!

Signalbox · 12/09/2025 10:43

Alexandra2001 · 12/09/2025 10:39

Yet approx 70% of the electorate are not planning on voting Reform...

I read that only 20% of the electorate voted for Labour at the last election and that gave them a massive majority. If that's true, 30% voting for reform would be pretty devastating (or not depending on your perspective)

TempestTost · 12/09/2025 10:45

Igneococcus · 12/09/2025 06:39

Historically, there aren’t comparable polices or racial structures associated with extreme left wing ideologies such as communism - as they would contradict the whole concept of equality and abolishment of class hierarchies that such ideologies are built on.

Pity nobody told Stalin and his mates that.

I know, right?

Do people know anything about history?

Communism and its view of history were behind absolutely massive numbers of deaths in the 20th century. More than any other ideology.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/09/2025 10:51

Alexandra2001 · 12/09/2025 09:14

Lol No they don't... the benefits culture exploded under the Cons, disability benefits, ECHP, nmw, furlough, eat out..... hand outs for all....

& it was May, who first rolled out the Trans agenda and then Boris who gave us more gender clinics and slashed fees for a GRC....

Ironically, for you, its Lab who will have to cut benefits and the 'right will howl, just as they did earlier in the year.

What do you mean by "ironically for you"? Have you got me down as an evil Tory?

I live in Liverpool where Labour totally dominates and where Tories are 'evil' whatever they do, or don't do.....and in some constituencies they don't even bother to field a candidate. I know all about Left wing shibboleths and morally virtuous positioning. I was a Labour party member until about 8 years ago, and have been around Left wing activism all of my adult life.

ArabellaSaurus · 12/09/2025 10:52

Alexandra2001 · 12/09/2025 10:39

Yet approx 70% of the electorate are not planning on voting Reform...

It takes far less than 30% of the electorate to win an election.

ArabellaSaurus · 12/09/2025 10:54

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/09/2025 10:51

What do you mean by "ironically for you"? Have you got me down as an evil Tory?

I live in Liverpool where Labour totally dominates and where Tories are 'evil' whatever they do, or don't do.....and in some constituencies they don't even bother to field a candidate. I know all about Left wing shibboleths and morally virtuous positioning. I was a Labour party member until about 8 years ago, and have been around Left wing activism all of my adult life.

Edited

Anyone questioning or critiquing the left is de facto on the right, Short.

That's why the left is in the shabby state it is in. No dissent, no questions, and no self reflection.

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